Modern Minutemen fighting for peace

[fintstone]

This is what your heroic "modern minutemen" did Saturday to drive out the evil opressors (the American) and free their country. I hope you are proud...as usual.

Washington Post
July 10, 2005

Marines, Iraqi Forces Raid Insurgent Strongholds

22 Suspected Guerrillas Detained in Sixth Recent Offensive in Western Province

By Andy Mosher, Washington Post Foreign Service

BAGHDAD, July 9 -- ......
Attacks by insurgents Friday and Saturday were largely concentrated in northern Iraq. In Baiji, 125 miles north of Baghdad, gunmen broke into a house Saturday morning and killed a family of four -- including two children, aged 2 and 5 -- according to the Reuters news agency. Near Mosul, 220 miles north of Baghdad, four travelers were pulled from their car and shot to death Friday, Reuters reported, and seven other Iraqis were killed in the city in a handful of attacks the same day.
......

[fintstone]

This is what those evil oppressors were doing at the same time:Airmen teach C-130 ops to Iraqis, learn about sacrifice

by Tech. Sgt. Melissa Phillips
407th Air Expeditionary Group Public Affairs

7/8/2005 - ALI BASE, Iraq (AFPN) -- When a crew of instructors deployed here to teach Iraqi airmen the finer points of flying and maintaining C-130 Hercules, they knew they had a monumental task in front of them. But what they found was something unexpected.

Slowly over several months, Iraqi and U.S. Airmen have developed lifelong friendships with the very men they previously called enemies.

“Our instructors are more than just a friend,” said Iraqi air force Capt. S, a maintenance officer with Squadron 23. “We are like brothers.” Names of Iraqi airmen were withheld as a means of force protection.

The squadron is the first medium airlift postwar Iraqi air force flying squadron and is now more than 100 airmen strong. More than 30 advisory support team instructors, all assigned here to either the 777th Expeditionary Aircraft Maintenance Squadron or 777th Airlift Squadron, teach their Iraqi counterparts in aircrew and logistics specialties.

The team also maintains a few specialized jobs such as maintenance operations center controller, sortie support section, production supervisor, maintenance officer and superintendent.

Master Sgt. Patrick Shaw, an aerial port instructor deployed from McChord Air Force Base, Wash., said coming here has revealed a new world to him. He teaches students who previously subscribed to a different philosophy on how to get the aerial port mission done.

Before learning the U.S. aerial port processes, the Iraqi students would go straight from the aircraft to the battlefield, Sergeant Shaw said.

Under the old regime, Iraqi airmen did not have the same level of accountability over cargo and people. So it has been an interesting process of getting them to understand why the paperwork is so important and will help reduce duplication of effort in the long run, Sergeant Shaw said.

Most of the Iraqi airmen have been doing the same job on other transport aircraft for years, some for longer than a few of the U.S. Airmen have been alive. Although the Iraqi air force has a solid foundation in transport flight processes, it still has not been an easy process to access their past experience.

Master Sgt. Tommy Lee, a flight engineer instructor, and his other teammates have had to find new and inventive ways to bridge the language gap.

“One time I had to explain in six different ways why the instrument panel wasn’t lit up,” said Sergeant Lee, who is deployed from Little Rock AFB, Ark. “One of the students had skipped a step on the checklist, and it took me 30 minutes to explain what it would have taken less than 30 seconds to explain to a U.S. Airman, because of the communication barrier.”

In the beginning, there were no interpreters. Now the unit has three.

Despite the obstacles, in less than six months the first Iraqi air force pilot and co-pilot flew alone without a U.S. pilot in a flight seat position, and the first navigator was fully qualified. Plus, more than 65 Iraqi air force mechanics have received their equivalent of a 5-level certification and are now working toward their 7-level equivalent.

“These are the best people I’ve ever worked with,” said Tech. Sgt Aaron Havens, an electrics and environmental instructor deployed from Pope AFB, N.C. “They pay attention, they like to keep everything clean (while performing maintenance), and with them it’s all about the airplane.”

The students are continually struggling to understand a new language and different ways of doing things while simultaneously fighting for their lives and worrying about keeping their identities secret to protect themselves and their families from harm by insurgents.

But for them, they say it is worth it because they no longer fight for just one man -- they fight for their country.

For Captain S, who was also an officer during the previous regime, that shift in mentality is priceless.

“I recently went to visit an Iraqi solider in the hospital,” he said. “He had lost both his legs, and we went there to comfort him. When we were leaving, we told him, ‘May God be with you.’ He called back out to me, ‘For Iraq, I would give up my whole life, not just my legs.’”

Most of the Iraqi airmen have businesses or farms and are relatively well off already. But when the opportunity came to return to the service they love, regardless of the risk, they jumped on it.

Since Jan. 14, when the squadron was officially formed, the airmen have been sneaking in the shadows and many have hid their allegiance to the Iraqi air force to family and friends, some even to their own wives.

Captain S’s wife, concerned for her family’s safety, continually pleads with him to quit and has also asked his father to pressure him. But the captain, whose own son does not know he is currently serving, said, “If I don’t do it, who will?

“I dream that Iraq will someday be safe,” he said. “We will be at peace, and at peace with our neighbors. I wish for a civilized country and a better place for my children.

“I try to teach my son to respect the armed forces when he sees them in the streets,” he said. “One day when he grows up, I want him to know his father sacrificed during the worst period in his country in order for his children to have a better Iraq.”

Flight Engineer J also fights for the same dream and a chance to build a new Iraqi air force.

He has been a flight engineer for 10 years, but until now has never felt able to express concerns to his superiors because of his lower rank.

“I’m impressed at how Americans treat each other as far as rank,” Engineer J said. “They treat each other equally. During the previous regime there was a huge difference between a flight engineer and pilot. Now, we work together.

“Because of the treatment we’ve experienced from our instructors firsthand and the friendship they’ve shown us, it’s made me change my views on all Americans,” he said. “We understand the true (meaning of) American kindness.”

Both Iraqi airmen said one of the proudest moments in their lives was during the ceremony when the Department of Defense gave three C-130 Hercules to the squadron, and the Iraqi air force placed the Iraqi flag on their own planes. The second was when they saw one of their planes take off and fly for the first time.

“We are so proud to be the first unit to fly Iraqi air force planes,” Engineer J said.

Their pride is contagious.

“This is the pinnacle of my career and the most rewarding job I’ve ever had in my Air Force career,” Sergeant Shaw said. “This job has given me a lot of insight to working outside your comfort zone. You really get a front seat to how other peoples’ actions (affect) organizations across the board.

“My students will continue to teach new students, and what we started here will allow them to move their forces and security folks to where they’re threatened to secure their nation,” he said.

From the start, Sergeant Shaw realized the historical significance of his job, but said he did not realize how strongly he would feel for the plight of his students.

“You get very close to these guys and you want to see them succeed,” Sergeant Shaw said.

He and the other instructors know their students’ family members by name and take an interest in their daily lives and vice versa. Some of the instructors and students have the other country’s flag in their homes and can recognize the sound of the other servicemember’s spouse on the other end of the phone.

“We get incredibly close to each other and our families get involved,” Sergeant Haven said.

The relationship between the two country’s airmen has not been all perpetual seriousness.

“I remember one of the first times our class shared a laugh together was during a training session where I was teaching them hand signals so they can marshal cargo properly,” Sergeant Shaw said. “Well, one of my students was trying to do more than one signal at a time, and he looked like an orchestra conductor.

“That became his nickname for a while,” he said. “Everyone had a good laugh and that’s when I realized we really weren’t so different.

“Sometimes it’s overwhelming to know how much of an (effect) you’re making when you’re in the middle of it,” Sergeant Shaw said. “But then you realize you’re helping specific people -- specific people I know by name -- and we are helping them to succeed.

“I don’t know what history will write, but if this is the smallest footnote or biggest chapter in history, I’ll never forget it,” he said.

[stuartj]

Well some of them anyway, fint. And yes, I know it was local security forces.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1735876,00.html

Suspects suffocate in van
11/07/2005 21:26 - (SA)

Baghdad - Nine bricklayers detained by security forces on suspicion of involvement with Iraqi insurgents were beaten and suffocated to death after being locked for hours in a police van, said witnesses.

Witnesses said three other men, who survived the ordeal, were taken to hospital in the early hours of Monday for emergency treatment, but two were later re-arrested.

The ordeal started on Sunday afternoon in Ameriyah, Baghdad, when United States forces allegedly fired at a minibus carrying the bricklayers, killing one and wounding two.

Iraqi police commandos later arrested a group of family members from the village of Radwaniya, about 50km west of Baghdad, who went to the Shuala district hospital to enquire about those wounded.

'Cops blindfolded me'

Diya Adnan, a member of the same Sunni tribe as the bricklayers, said police commandos at the hospital, where he happened to be taking his pregnant wife, also picked him up.

He said: "They blindfolded me and tied my hands behind my back."

He said: "I was screaming and crying", adding that he was beaten and thrown into the police van about 18:00.

A 27-year-old oil ministry employee, speaking at a hastily convened press conference organised at the Um al-Qura mosque by the Sunni Muslim Scholars' Association, said: "There were 12 or 13 men there.

"Everyone was suffocating. I thought they were all dead."

Interior ministry official gives no details

He said he passed out and woke up at the hospital at about 04:00 from where he escaped with the help of his family.

An interior ministry official said a police report was filed on the case, but he declined to give details.

There had been numerous allegations of brutality, particularly by police and special commandos, against detained insurgent suspects.

Adnan al-Dulaimi, head of the Sunni religious endowments, called on the government to protect ordinary citizens from arbitrary arrest.

He warned that "ethnic cleansing" of Arab Sunni Muslims threatened to destroy the country.

[fintstone]

I don't know...I would have to wait for an investigation results...as most allegations like this have proven false in the past....like the "wedding day" killings and the bombed "baby milk" factories.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by fintstone
I would have to wait for an investigation results...as most allegations like this have proven false in the past....like the "wedding day" killings and the bombed "baby milk" factories.

Yes. Like the Wedding Day massacre at Makr al-Deeb in May 04, we will wait for the US military to say it didnt happen.

In the meantime, how about another of those feel good stories. Got any involving smiling kiddies?

[fintstone]

Of course, it happened...it just was not a wedding.

[Moneyguy1]

My God, guys..it is called "the fog of war." Add that to a total difference in cultures and what one sees as evil, the other sees as justifiable. One has to wonder where the moral compass is for much of the ME.

Certainly, no one in his right mind would disagree that the US has gone out of its way to limit civilian casulties. All one has to do is look at WWII film of Dresden, London, Berlin, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki to see how far warfare has advanced in limiting wholesale loss of civilian life. But that is a two edged sword since the surgical strikes, limiting damage, do little to convince the vanquished that they have indeed been vanquished.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
My God, guys..it is called "the fog of war." Add that to a total difference in cultures and what one sees as evil, the other sees as justifiable. One has to wonder where the moral compass is for much of the ME.

Fog of War indeed. Its pretty rich referring to the "moral compass" when 150,000 of OUR troops are occupying THEIR country, and 100,000 Iraqis are dead, dont you think?

Just to recap, there are no WMDs, there are no links to Osama, and so we are down to regime change as the reason for war. So we went to war to remove a govt we didnt like and install one we do like.

Ring out, o Freedom Bells.

What a farkin joke.

[fintstone]

There were WMDs, there were links to Osama, and even if we had killed 100,000 Iraqis...that is far less than their own president put to death...but look at the body count....most of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis and foreign terrorists.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by fintstone
There were WMDs, there were links to Osama, and even if we had killed 100,000 Iraqis...that is far less than their own president put to death...but look at the body count....most of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis and foreign terrorists.

No longer do I wonder what sort of moron could possibly re-elect George Bush.

"most of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis and foreign terrorists" If we exclude the unpublished numbers of thousands that were killed during the invasion, we are left with the fact the Iraq is today in complete chaos. Number of terrorsit deaths pre invasion? Number of terrorist deaths post invasion?

And the use of the perjoritive "terrorist". Iraqi fighting an occupying military IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY are terrorists?

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

[Moneyguy1]

AS much as I agree that the current world situation has to be resolved and the sooner the better, I still wonder to some extent whether it should have been up to the Iraqis themselves to fix their internal problems. We didn't like it very much when GB invaded our country during the early 19th century and burned down our capital buildings...

Why do we respect the Pakistan border if the bad guys run across it and hide? Why don't we just say to hell with it and go after them no matter where they are?

I dunno....I see the problem differently than a lot of people..I see a messed up culture, I see inconsistency in US policy over the past 40 years that leads to more mistrust that there should be. I see us protecting some non democratic governments while villifying others. I just don't get it.

Kudos to our boys and girls put in harms way. I pray for their welfare everh day. May they come home someday to a country that is not so divided as it is now and to a world more stable for their efforts.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by stuartj
No longer do I wonder what sort of moron could possibly re-elect George Bush.

"most of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis and foreign terrorists" If we exclude the unpublished numbers of thousands that were killed during the invasion, we are left with the fact the Iraq is today in complete chaos. Number of terrorsit deaths pre invasion? Number of terrorist deaths post invasion?

And the use of the perjoritive "terrorist". Iraqi fighting an occupying military IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY are terrorists?

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

Perhaps you should try to read the posts you quote. If they are foreign terrorists killing Iraqis.....by definition, the "foreign" terrorists that are being cited are not Iraqis.
Also if you read the post you quoted, you would note that it referred to terrorists killing Iraqis.....not killing "an occupying military in their own country." Are you being intentionally misleading ?? Does "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" refer to totally misrepresenting what another poster says?

[stuartj]

Ah. I see.

[CamB]

Originally posted by fintstone
There were WMDs, there were links to Osama, and even if we had killed 100,000 Iraqis...that is far less than their own president put to death...but look at the body count....most of the Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis and foreign terrorists.

Phew, that's a hefty dose of moral relativism.

You also left out the "but not worth invading over" on the WMD and links to Osama part.

Could Saddam have been unseated for $200b without invasion? Or do we all prefer shoot first and ask questions later.

Oh yeah, I've been looking around and the promised investigation of the Iraqi wedding party deaths has never eventuated. Silence indicative of guilt?

[IROC]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
I dunno....I see the problem differently than a lot of people..I see a messed up culture, I see inconsistency in US policy over the past 40 years that leads to more mistrust that there should be. I see us protecting some non democratic governments while villifying others. I just don't get it.

I totally agree. Now that we're down to "regime change" as a reason for the Iraq war, I would think that Robert Mugabe (Zimbabwe) should be concerned. He's trying real hard to live up to Saddam's example of how not to lead a country. If "regime change" is a viable reason to invade a country, then many of the countries in Africa are ripe for an invasion.

It is too hard for me anymore to differentiate between propaganda and the truth.

Mike

[Moneyguy1]

Mike..I cannot tell the difference anymore.

Beginning to give up on the human race.....failed experiment...

[stuartj]

Originally posted by CamB


Oh yeah, I've been looking around and the promised investigation of the Iraqi wedding party deaths has never eventuated. Silence indicative of guilt?

Ofcourse it never eventuated. Comical Kimmett, military talking head, promised a full investigation at the time, the commanding officer involved cigar, fondled his pearl handled revolvers and and said his men had nothng to apologise for, and once enough FUD had been thrown around to suggest it was something much more sinsister than a wedding, (what were those Bedouins doing the goddam desert afer all) it all disappeared off the font pages and that was that.

[techweenie]

Fint still thinks there were WMDs? Even after the Bush administration finally 'fessed up and admitted there weren't?

Wow.

Oh, and the "links to Osama?" Laughable. Florida had more "links to Osama" than Iraq did. Good thing the governor is a relative!

As for the relative death rate, I think we've trumped Saddam in terms of Iraqis killed. I'd love to see some kind of independent comparison, but I know the only folks really tracking the numbers will have an agenda -- at one extreme ofr the other.

As for who is killing the Iraqis, well, fint might have gotten one right -- depending on what "is" is. We were in the lead until Fallujah finally fell. (fint, did you know we physically prevented every male under 30 from leaving before bombing the h*ell out of that place?)

Today, and for the last couple of months, it looks like the bad guys are killing more Iraqis than we are.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by CamB
...Could Saddam have been unseated for $200b without invasion? Or do we all prefer shoot first and ask questions later.

Oh yeah, I've been looking around and the promised investigation of the Iraqi wedding party deaths has never eventuated. Silence indicative of guilt?

Probably not for $200b because Saddam was making plenty of money himself to buy friends by selling oil illegally to his allies in France/ Russia/Germany and to a few British politicians.

And of course, the investigation by the army occured and found that there was a party of terrorist, not wedding guests.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Your 'minutemen fighting for peace' analogy of insurgent terrorists fighting against the democracy we've brought to Iraq is like having girls f*ck for virginity.

Iraq is better, and will be better. Deal with it.