SUV bashing, fuel scare

[kaisen]

There is a thread here where a fellow Pelicanite was ridiculed for purchasing a new Ford Excursion Diesel because of its environmental impact and societal 'excess'.

Guess the new ride

On a related note, used SUV's are dropping in value and new SUV's are deeply discounted. It appears that $2-3 fuel prices have everyone scrambling to find more economical substitutes.

Most Pelicanites are the people their car-illiterate friends and neighbors come to for car advice. I'm certainly one of those guys.

My neighbor owns a 2004 Chev Suburban LT 4x4 and a 2004 Saturn VUE V6 AWD. He has four kids ages 6-13. He has a 20ft ski boat, snowmobiles, and a riding lawnmower. This is VERY typical for my neighborhood.

We live about 20 miles from 'downtown' in a newer middle/upscale development of the Minneapolis/St Paul metro area. Most of my neighbors commute 20-40 miles one-way into work (which takes 20-40 minutes - no traffic).

So my neighbor comes to me and tells me that gas is killing him and he's thinking of trading in the Sub and the VUE and buying something more fuel efficient.

Great thinking, but my gears are turning. I helped him buy both the Suburban and the VUE. At the time, they fit his needs and that's why he bought them. I asked him what has changed. What needs were now different? Nothing except the price of gas.

I did the math with him. He and his wife both drive about 15,000 miles a year (which is close to the national average). His Suburban gets about 18 mpg on his mostly-freeway commute. So he buys 800-850 gallons per year. Gas was $1.60 when he made the decision to buy the Sub. Gas is now $2.10. The difference is <$425 per year. Certainly not going to break him.

He dreaded the idea, but he could buy a minivan - wouldn't tow the boat, but would tow the snowmobiles an lawnmower (poorly) and would haul four kids just fine. Okay, so he buys any minivan on the market and gets 23 mpg and saves maybe 200 gallons per year (about $425) and gets back to what he's used to spending for gas.

It's my job to know the values of vehicles. With people like my neighbor trading in big SUVs, the supply is great and the demand is small, so values are dropping. His Sub stickered for ~$50K and he bought it for $41K. Now, with 17,000 miles he will get $28-29K for it wholesale which is about what the new 2005 Toyota Sienna XLE he wants costs (which stickers for ~$32K). So he will trade even at best. His real 'loss' is roughly $12,000 for the 15 months he's owned the Sub. His payment won't change, so he's happy (the American way!?).

He loves his Suburban. It pulls his stuff, hauls his kids and their hockey gear, goes through snow, and he likes the way it drives (smooth, stable, solid, sits up high so he can see in traffic). It's just about the gas. So he's seriously contemplating losing $12000 to save $425 a year in gas and be less happy.

Are we nuts? I realize that there are tons of SUVs that are driven by people that don't use them for their intended purpose. However, there are plenty (like the fellow Pelicanite with the Excursion) that DO NEED a large SUV or truck. Why the societal pressure?

The world produces 80-85 million BARRELS (55 gallons) of crude oil every day.

So, fine, you say. If my neighbor can save 200 gallons per year by getting a car that is 5mpg more efficient, then he is doing his tree-hugging duty. To that I say: then trade your 27 mpg V6 Accord on a 32mpg 4 cyl Civic.

It's the same 200 gallons, but no one seems to care.

What about the economic impact? The $12,000 loss? The import car manufacturers that are poised to benefit from this swing in demand? The TWELVE homes that are for sale in my neighborhood, depressing property values, because people are less likely to live further away from work?

My neighbor's solution? I found him a new 2005 Saturn ION (32mpg) to lease for 36 months at $125/mo. He will use it to commute and 'save' the Sub for family/towing use. His wife kept her Vue.

Just a rant and rambling, sorry. But I don't get it.

E

[speeder]

Originally posted by kaisen


Just a rant and rambling, sorry. But I don't get it.

E

Here is something that you might get: It took ~120 years to burn the first trillion barrels of oil. It will take 30 years to burn the next trillion. (At projected rates).

Before you question the source of this info as being from a "tree hugger" org., it came from a Chevron ad in yesterday's NY Times. The U.S.A., (by far the world's largest energy consumer), could cut its use of oil in half, tomorrow if every pencil-neck geek using a Suburban to haul (1) person switched to even a mid-sized car. (~23 mpg). And Suburbans don't get 18 mpg, maybe if you pushed it off a cliff. (I can dream).

I know that they are great tow vehicles, but even most suburban Mpls. folks use it for that a few hours a year. Enterprise and U-haul rent trucks by the hour or day. (That's how they handle that problem everywhere else in the world, no one drives a tank on the roads). I'm much more angry at my government having no real energy policy for decades, (Dem and GOP), than I am at consumers who bought trucks for daily drivers when gas was a dollar @ gallon. (It might as well have been free at those prices). And gas is $2.10 in the twin cities?? WTF is he complaining about? We go to sleep at night here dreaming about the good old days when gas was $2.10. Try $2.97 for premium yesterday. Every time I fill up, I'm overcome w/ rage at my stupid, greedy government and all of us sheep who let big oil and Detroit set energy policy. We're in Iraq right now because of it, and Cheney's stock options are looking SWEEEEET.

[nostatic]

costs about $7 to fill up the motorcycle...

[kjb]

I agree with most of your math. However:

Originally posted by kaisen
To that I say: then trade your 27 mpg V6 Accord on a 32mpg 4 cyl Civic.

It's the same 200 gallons, but no one seems to care.

To save 200 gallons a year, the driver of the 27 mpg Accord needs to get a car that gets 40 mpg, not 32. The 32 mpg Civic will only save 86 gallons per year.

/ Johan

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by speeder
...The U.S.A., (by far the world's largest energy consumer), could cut its use of oil in half, tomorrow if every pencil-neck geek using a Suburban to haul (1) person switched to even a mid-sized car. (~23 mpg)...

And what would the cost to said pencil-neck geek be to switch from SUV to green peace car? That was the intent of the original post. What good would using half as much oil (savings in dollars) do if you have to spend X times that to achieve the savings?

The original post was (IMO) a very good look at the actual numbers involve in this particular instance. It was not an emotional decision based on the portrayal of big vehicles as the enemy.

[JavaBrewer]

So over a year ago I played devil's advocate with my sister-in-law and her bling Lincoln Navigator arguing against the safety she thought it offered. She get's all huffy and say's I have no clue what I'm talking about and that her SUV is the safest vehicle on the road.

So how ironic that a 6 months later she was stopped at a red light when a delivery truck failed to notice and creamed into the back of her bling Navigator crushing the rear to the second row seats. Had she taken our discussion to heart and traded in for a "safer" sporty car she definitely would not have not survived the incident. Not the first time I was proven the idiot

[speeder]

OK, you are right about the math. I'm also annoyed at all of the phony people here who have just traded their SUVs in on Priuses. Like they didn't know/care about the ozone layer 4 years ago when they bought the special "rain forest eliminator" model of Eddie Bauer belch-fire turd??

I stopped into the Lexus dealer to see the new hybrid SUV RX model, (a neat car, FWIW), the salesman was telling me how the first ones went for $20G over list!

We were laughing about how many gallons of super unleaded that would buy. There was also a story about bio-diesel @ $4.00 gallon, same thing. I personally don't have the type of extra scratch to pose like that. What a joke.

When it comes to oil/energy policy/waste/stupidity, just about everything annoys me.

[Burnin' oil]

I say use it all up and the sooner the better

[speeder]

Originally posted by dmoolenaar
and that her SUV is the safest vehicle on the road.

Not actually true, not by a long shot. But if it makes her feel better, OK.

By that logic, you should have asked her why she wasn't driving a retired schoolbus, they are plentiful and cheap plus they make the Navigator look like a little commie hybrid in comparison. And think how many Bush/Cheney and "I support the war" stickers you could fit on that sucker. I mean after all, she has kids to protect, right? What kind of mother is she anyways?

Playing devil's advocate, of course.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Burnin' oil
I say use it all up and the sooner the better

do we have to burn it, or can we just dump it in the ocean?

[StevoRocket]

UK fuel prices have fallen slightly from last month’s highest-ever recorded prices.

Unleaded fell by 0.4p a litre (1.8p a gallon) and prices in all regions reflected this decrease except Northern Ireland where prices increased from 86.4p to 86.7p. Northern Ireland and East Anglia have prices that are still above 86p a litre and the North West and Yorkshire & Humberside have the lowest prices at 85.1p a litre. Compared with European prices, the UK is the sixth most expensive for unleaded petrol. The Netherlands tops the list with a pence per litre equivalent of 94.3p.

Diesel also fell 0.4p a litre (1.8p a gallon) with Northern Ireland again having the highest regional price and an increase over April figures.

The UK has the highest diesel prices in Europe, due to having higher duty rates than other countries.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by nostatic
do we have to burn it, or can we just dump it in the ocean?

Stop shirking your responsibilities Todd and burn the damn oil already! Trade that bike in for an H2.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
So I assume she learned her lesson and replaced the crushed Navigator with a much safer Excursion?

She must think of the children. Won't anybody think of the children?

Nope, a new Navigator, now with DVD satallite navigation and a load of other useless extravagances. She's into the "Privileged" look that's all the rage with the soccer moms in Carlsbad.

[StevoRocket]

United States of America US Dollars Gas 0.57 Diesel 0.61 per litre

US gas prices in pence per litre 31.76 diesel 33.99
UK gas prices in pence per litre 86.70 diesel 89.60

UK gas is 2.73 times more expensive than US
UK diesel is 2.64 times more expensive than US

Wonder how many SUV's would be dumped if you had suddenly to pay our prices?

[Burnin' oil]

Quit yer whinin' Stevo. The UK is so small you should just walk everywhere. . . then send your surplus gas to us . . .

[djmcmath]

Originally posted by Burnin' oil
. . . then send your surplus gas to us . . .

So we can dispose of it properly.

[techweenie]

Hold on here. Back to the first post.

A 5,500 lb Suburban gets 18 mpg in a 20-mile commute?

Why do I find that difficult to believe? I have several friends with Suburbans and 11-15 is more like it, with 8-10 for jaunts to pick up 30 lbs. of groceries. That's real-world numbers, verified by my friends keeping track of purchases and mileage.

[HardDrive]

People should feel free to buy whatever they like.

I will also feel free to make fun of them. I don't see how people can view an Excursion as a status symbol. There was an H2 parked at the local shopping center here. People literally were stopping to make fun of it. It just screams desperate.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by nostatic
costs about $7 to fill up the motorcycle...

Only $4 for a liter of Spatan to fuel me on my BMX bike

[Dottore]

When you do the math - you invariably conclude to keep the SUV.

The real debate on this issue is between people who are concerned about sustainability and the depletion of non-renewable resources on the one hand - and people who do not give a f___ on the other.

Most of my friends would peg me as being in the former group. (I recycle my trash, support environmental initiatives etc etc). That said, my guess is that the sooner we run out of this stuff the sooner replacement technologies will begin to emerge.

It's all cyclic.

I suspect we are a much more resilient and adaptable species than most environmentalists would have us believe. The time will undoubtedly come when we will have to do without fossil fuels and we'll all have to drive hydrogen powered Porsches instead. But so what?