Does the west hold a position of moral superiority over ..

[gavinlit]

This poll is in response to an issue that's cropped up on another thread. It'd be interesting to get some opinions on this one.

[gavinlit]

I believe neither of the above.

[WOODPIE]

I doubt it. Well, yes and no. Maybe. Sometimes. It all depends.

If by "the west" you mean U.S. and gang, I think the position they hold is doggie style, nether regions.

[fintstone]

Of course.

[bryanthompson]

We don't breed terrorists. We don't starve our own people. We protect the unprotected, and we do more good in the world than at least any communist or muslim country. If our friends in the world need help, we're the first one there, and the last ones to leave.

Communism has killed a hundred million people in its history. In the last 5 years alone, we've freed 50 million people from tyranny and oppression.

Until muslim countries as a whole absolutely reject the terrorists that have hijacked their religion, and as long as communism even exists, we hold the position of moral superiority, without a doubt.

[fintstone]

Obviously if the liberals really thought things were bad here...there would widespread emigration vs immigration...and they would be on the first boat to North Korea.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by fintstone
Obviously if the liberals really thought things were bad here...there would widespread emigration vs immigration...and they would be on the first boat to North Korea.

I thought they were all headed to Canada if Bush won a second term? Or was that if he won a first term? Or both? I'm confused. Why are they all still here?

[Joeaksa]

We hold the position that the US is the country that people from almost every other country in the world want to come to, if not to stay then to visit.

Please tell me what we are doing wrong considering the above? Everyone is breaking the door (or fence in this case) down to immigrate illegally...

Joe A

[WOODPIE]

You're right, Joe; it's as simple as that. Folks from all over the world want to come to the U.S. because we have the morally superior position.

No, that's not it, I'm just kidding. People come here cause they want stuff, and we have more stuff than anyone else, so this is a good place to get stuff. You don't even have to work too hard to get stuff here, compared to elsewhere. He11, if you want to, you can just come here and steal, cheat and swindle other people out of their stuff. And if that still seems like too much work, sometimes the govt. will just give you stuff for doing nothing. What a country!

But they sure as he11 aren't coming here, legally or otherwise, for the morally superior position.

Ed

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
We hold the position that the US is the country that people from almost every other country in the world want to come to, if not to stay then to visit.
Joe A

Mickey. Mouse.

[1967 R50/2]

You may as well ask if the west has a moral superiority of peanut butter and jelly. I don't see how the choices relate.

Superior to Muslims or yee old generic communist? No. I can't say that Dave Chapelle (Muslim) or Elian Gonzalez's dad (communist) are morally objectionable people. The question is absurd.

However, if you were to ask:

Is the democratic-capitalist ethos morally superior to the political philosophies of:

1. Stalinist/Maoist style totalitarian communist regimes. (ne N. Korea)
2. Islamist totalitarian theocracies. (n,e Iran)

Than I would say yes!

[fintstone]

You tell me about moral superiority when 1 in 4 muslims in Britian...many who live there on the largess of the British citizens sympathize with the murderous terrorists.

One in four Muslims sympathises with motives of terrorists
By Anthony King
(Filed: 23/07/2005)

The group portrait of British Muslims painted by YouGov's survey for The Daily Telegraph is at once reassuring and disturbing, in some ways even alarming.

The vast majority of British Muslims condemn the London bombings but a substantial minority are clearly alienated from modern British society and some are prepared to justify terrorist acts.

The divisions within the Muslim community go deep. Muslims are divided over the morality of the London bombings, over the extent of their loyalty to this country and over how Muslims should respond to recent events.

Most Muslims are evidently moderate and law-abiding but by no means all are.

YouGov sought to gauge the character of the Muslim community's response to the events of July 7. As the figures in the chart show, 88 per cent of British Muslims clearly have no intention of trying to justify the bus and Tube murders.

However, six per cent insist that the bombings were, on the contrary, fully justified.

Six per cent may seem a small proportion but in absolute numbers it amounts to about 100,000 individuals who, if not prepared to carry out terrorist acts, are ready to support those who do.

Moreover, the proportion of YouGov's respondents who, while not condoning the London attacks, have some sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried them out is considerably larger - 24 per cent.

A substantial majority, 56 per cent, say that, whether or not they sympathise with the bombers, they can at least understand why some people might want to behave in this way.

YouGov also asked whether or not its Muslim respondents agreed or disagreed with Tony Blair's description of the ideas and ideology of the London bombers as "perverted and poisonous".

Again, while a large majority, 58 per cent, agree with him, a substantial minority, 26 per cent, are reluctant to be so dismissive.

The responses indicate that Muslim men are more likely than Muslim women to be alienated from the mainstream and that the young are more likely to be similarly alienated than the old.

However, there are few signs in YouGov's findings that Muslims of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin are any more disaffected than their co-religionists from elsewhere.

The sheer scale of Muslim alienation from British society that the survey reveals is remarkable. Although a large majority of British Muslims are more than content to make their home in this country, a significant minority are not.

For example, YouGov asked respondents how loyal they feel towards Britain. As the figures in the chart show, the great majority say they feel "very loyal" (46 per cent) or "fairly loyal" (33 per cent) but nearly one British Muslim in five, 18 per cent, feels little loyalty towards this country or none at all.

If these findings are accurate, and they probably are, well over 100,000 British Muslims feel no loyalty whatsoever towards this country.

The proportion of men who say they feel no loyalty to Britain is more than three times the proportion of women saying the same.

Equally remarkable are YouGov's findings concerning many Muslims' attitudes towards Western society and culture.

YouGov asked respondents how they feel about Western society and how, if at all, they feel Muslims should adapt to it. A majority, 56 per cent, believe "Western society may not be perfect but Muslims should live with it and not seek to bring it to an end".

However, nearly a third of British Muslims, 32 per cent, are far more censorious, believing that "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end".

Among those who hold this view, almost all go on to say that Muslims should only seek to bring about change by non-violent means but one per cent, about 16,000 individuals, declare themselves willing, possibly even eager, to embrace violence.

Yet again, far more men than women and far more young people than their elders evince this kind of hostility towards the world around them. In addition, tens of thousands of Muslims view the whole of Britain's political establishment with suspicion.

More than half of those interviewed, 52 per cent, believe "British political leaders don't mean it when they talk about equality. They regard the lives of white British people as more valuable than the lives of British Muslims".

Almost as many, 50 per cent, reckon the main party leaders are not being sincere when they say they respect Islam and want to co-operate with Britain's Muslim communities.

Despite Tony Blair's well-publicised efforts to reach out to Muslims, fewer than half of those interviewed, 42 per cent, approve of the way he has handled Britain's response to the July 7 events.

Many British Muslims are probably reluctant to give Mr Blair credit for anything at all following his complicity with America, as they see it, in launching the invasion of Iraq. Just more than half, 52 per cent, are impressed by the performance since the bombings of Sir Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Great Britain. Some Muslims' discontent with Britain clearly extends to discontent with the existing moderate and pro-British Muslim leadership.

A cloud of suspicion also hangs over Britain's judicial system.

YouGov asked its Muslim respondents whether or not they thought anyone charged and taken to court in connection with the July 7 attacks would receive a fair trial. Only 37 per cent said yes. The rest reckon he or she would not or were doubtful that they would.

Despite these widespread doubts, a large majority of Britain's Muslims clearly believe the time has come when Muslims must shoulder their share of the responsibility for preventing and punishing terrorist crimes such as those in London.

As the figures in the chart show, roughly a third of Muslims reckon they should assume "a great deal" of the responsibility and another third reckon they should assume at least "some" of it.

Even more impressive in some ways is the fact that large numbers now say they are prepared to put their mouth where their feelings are.

As the figures in the chart show, almost three quarters of British Mulsims, 73 per cent, say they would inform the police if they believed that someone they knew or knew of might be planning a terrorist attack.

Nearly half, 47 per cent, say they would also go to the police if they believed an imam or other religious person was trying to radicalise young Muslims by preaching hatred against the West.

Not only that but 70 per cent of Muslims reckon they have a duty to go to the police if they "see something in the community that makes them feel suspicious".

Taken as a whole, the findings of YouGov's survey suggest that, although large numbers of British Muslims dislike British society and in some cases may be tempted to attack it, the great majority are loyal and law-abiding and are unlikely to provide the radicals with moral support, let alone safe havens.

YouGov interviewed 526 Muslim adults across Great Britain online between July 15 and yesterday. The data were weighted to reflect the composition of Britain's Muslim population by gender, age and country of birth.

YouGov abides by the rules of the British Polling Council.

Anthony King is professor of government at Essex

[artplumber]

Originally posted by 1967 R50/2


1. Stalinist/Maoist style totalitarian communist regimes. (ne N. Korea)
2. Islamist totalitarian theocracies. (n,e Iran)

This is too much like textbook reading again! ouch

[gavinlit]

"You may as well ask if the west has a moral superiority of peanut butter and jelly. I don't see how the choices relate."
I agree with you - it's an inherently ridiculous question but a statement was made on another thread regarding this so I thought I'd ask. What's interesting is that a few people don't see the question as ridiculous - in fact they have a fairly set view on it. Crazy huh.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by stuartj
Mickey. Mouse.

So Stuart, should we contact the Border Patrol and put your name on the list of people from Australia who do not want to ever come to this country and refuse you entry?

Minnie Mouse.

Joe A

[kang]

Part of the problem is that people in the West actually believe they have moral superiority over others. This is purely a White Supremacist attitude. This is bigotry and racism.

But anyone who believes this is not alone. Osama Bin Laden believes his brand of Islam is superior and wants to spread it across the globe. What makes someone who believes he is superior and wants to spread their lifestyle or religion across the globe any better than him?

Osama Bin Laden tries to spread his belief system via terrorism, and we try to spread our belief system by forcing democracy on Iraq. We also spread our belief system by spreading materialism across the globe.

The reason communists and muslims hate us is because we believe we are superior to them and we try to force our way of lives on them.

[bryanthompson]

Freedom (superior in all aspects to any other way of life) is threatening to communism and muslims. That is why they hate us.

[Moses]

Originally posted by kang
Part of the problem is that people in the West actually believe they have moral superiority over others. This is purely a White Supremacist attitude. This is bigotry and racism.

You clearly don't understand America. We have struggled with slavery, racism and civil rights while other nations accept it as a way of life. Hard to compete with the middle-east in racism and bigotry. How would you like to live in a muslim state as a woman? A minority? A disabled person? A Christian? A jew? You have the whole thing bass-ackwards.


The reason communists and muslims hate us is because we believe we are superior to them and we try to force our way of lives on them.

Need a history lesson? We are hated by the islamic world primarily because of our support of Israel. We love freedom and they abhor it. Simple, really.

[widebody911]

Great country, *****ty administration. The people coming to this country aren't doing so because they love George Bush. Not only that, but by coming here, they have a better chance of escaping GWB's foreign policy; you won't get run over by the tank if you're riding on it.

[mikester]

We are te good guys, we should really act like it and hold ourselves to a higher moral code than our enemies hold themselves too.