Do America and Europe need to be Allies??

[1967 R50/2]

Having travelled quite a bit in Europe, but also having read quite a few OPs on this board I would like to throw this topic open for debate with a couple of points to consider. Please note that I don't have a view....I want to hear yours and I have positioned things to be purposely ...uh... interesting.:

Topic: Europe and the US should not be allies any longer. We have reached a historical parting of the ways.

Points:

1. Civil liberties in Europe are counter to those in the US. Namely the concept of religious freedom is very different: For example: Can't wear a skull cap, big cross or head scarf to school in France. Scientologists, Jehovah witnesses and other fringe religions are officially persecuted in Germany.

It has also been said that Europe has become "a-religious" or "post-religious", while the US seems to be experiencing a religious revival. This would seem to point to deeper differences.

2. Capitalism: The American concept of capitalism is obviously very assertive. We all are expected to work hard and admire our foreign trade partners that do likewise.

In contrast, it is common in Europe to get a month off for vacation or more, plus holidays. In Germany for example, you get paid 80% of your salary for 2 years if laid-off. There is public health care and other welfare state safety nets as well.

3. The world: The US government at least, if not all the populace, has made no secret that it would like to spread Democracy and Capitalism everywhere. By force, maybe....but by other methods assuredly.

The European stance seems to be "Live and let live".

4. Militarily: With the exception of Britain and France, Europe has only very moderate militarys and therefore can not project power...even in local conflicts such as Kosovo.

The US in the meantime is sitting on the strongest military on earth and has been thowing it's weight around quite abit. Does the US need European military assistance? Does Europe need the US on their back?

5. Economics: The US economic focus has been looking to the Far East for some time. Now it is focused like a laser.

As the Asian nations become more potent economically, Europe and America's trade relationship could cease to be relevant. It could even be contrary?

There are probably many other issues as well. Feel free to post or rant.

[livi]

I discussion of this kind will need a precise definition of the word allied. (before I get shot to pieces as an outnumbered for'ner)

[IROC]

Seems to me that the reason to become "allied" with someone would be because there is some common benefit to the alliance - not because you share similar political or religious beliefs. Just because we're different doesn't mean there isn't some mutual benefit to be gained.

Maybe too simplistic of a view?

Mike

[bryanthompson]

The problem with that, Mike, is that there's no common direction. If there were common direction, havingt hem as allies would be swell. It's impossible to get much done with most of them, and nobody wants to take control. Then when someone does take control, they get ragged on. There's no unity, structure, or common goal, imho.

[yellowline]

I think we should encourage positive relations with any nation that doesn't explicitly and officially wish us harm, or pose an active threat to our way of life. Simple as that.

[IROC]

Then, there's no problem. If there's no "benefit" to the alliance - then's there's no reason to be allies.

In that light, maybe the question should be re-phrased "what is the common direction for the US-Euro alliance"? If there's not one, then maybe there's no real need for an "alliance".

My simplistic mind likes to use a "playground" analogy when thinking about world politics (probably why I don't understand that subject too well). Anyway, just because you're not "allied" with someone doesn't mean you can't be "friends".

Just throwing that out. I didn't think that differences in religious beliefs and vacation time should be the basis to dissolve an alliance (or not be friends anymore).

Mike

[bryanthompson]

good point... It seems like it might be more useful to start from a blank list and start building up allies each time we need them, then dissolve and start over the next time we need to.

[Overpaid Slacker]

bryan -
That's a cornerstone of realpolitik -- a nation's alliances are transitory, its interests are permanent.

Victor Davis Hanson has written quite a bit in the past couple of years about America and Europe going their separate ways -- and about certain powerful European voices treating the US as an adversary. Do some Googling and you can find quite a few very incisive VDH essays on this topic.

JP

[1967 R50/2]

Hmmm...Conversation not adversarial enough. GET WITH IT AND START RANTING!!!!

[livi]

Whats the downside to being allies ??

[fintstone]

Most European countries are really not our allies...per my definition of the world. They want to benefit from the largess of the US without contributing anything to the partnership.

[mikester]

Originally posted by bryanthompson
The problem with that, Mike, is that there's no common direction. If there were common direction, havingt hem as allies would be swell. It's impossible to get much done with most of them, and nobody wants to take control. Then when someone does take control, they get ragged on. There's no unity, structure, or common goal, imho.

Same thing happens here in the usa every day man.

[Victor]

Assuming you are following the American logic "you are either with us or against us", the second the USA and Europe cease to be allies, you guys would need to run in there and bomb the ***** out of the place and then spend the next eternity not knowing how to get the hell back out all the while pretending you are in it to protect the world from terrorism.

So I say go for it - the US is already a global laughing stock on so many levels.

Oh and by the way, I'm Australian so you might as well chuck me in with the Europeans. Of course, I have positioned this response to be ....uh ...... interesting.

[RoninLB]

Western Europe has been powered by social issues since WW2. NATO's funding is a pretty clear explain to me.

[fintstone]

Good try Victor, but I just spent some time in Australia...and spoke to a few of your politicians and a great deal of military folks...and citizens....and you speak for your countrymen about as much as the Libs here speak for us. Australia, as a whole seems rather happy to be our ally....and I would never lump them in with most of Europe.
You (and your liberal counterparts here) only wish the US was a "laughing stock."

[dtw]

Originally posted by Victor
Of course, I have positioned this response to be ....uh ...... interesting.

[MikeCT]

Originally posted by dtw
pic

Originally posted by 1967 R50/2
... I have positioned things to be purposely ...uh... interesting

[livi]

Since Sweden by tradition been a non-allied for a very long time, I suggest you leave us alone when you eventually come charging into Europe hunting for "terrorists".

[Victor]

Originally posted by fintstone
Good try Victor, but I just spent some time in Australia...and spoke to a few of your politicians and a great deal of military folks...and citizens....and you speak for your countrymen about as much as the Libs here speak for us. Australia, as a whole seems rather happy to be our ally....and I would never lump them in with most of Europe.
You (and your liberal counterparts here) only wish the US was a "laughing stock."

Wherabouts in Australia did you spend time?

[red-beard]

Originally posted by Victor
Assuming you are following the American logic "you are either with us or against us", the second the USA and Europe cease to be allies, you guys would need to run in there and bomb the ***** out of the place and then spend the next eternity not knowing how to get the hell back out all the while pretending you are in it to protect the world from terrorism.

Didn't we already do that, twice? What did it get us? I think next time we should stick to our neutrality stance and see what happens. Maybe Europe will be speaking Chinese.

"It's Tommy this and Tommy that, and throw him out, the Brute
But 'tis 'Savior our our country', when the gun begin to shoot."