The value of a hybrid

[FrayAdjacent911]

Originally posted by djmcmath
A g/f of mine bought a used Insight. I'm sure they get 66mpg new, but as the battery starts to wear, they get closer to 55, then 50, then 45. You'd really have to figure in that mileage decrease over time with the cost of the car.

I had an Insight for about a year, and IIRC, the battery pack is warranted for something like 80k or 100k. Check on that.


Also, the type of driving must be taken into consideration. I found that the Insight was very sensitive to conditions. City driving would drop my average fuel economy to ~50. Highway driving would get great fuel economy, until I tried to drive faster than ~75MPH. It dropped again.

A few things you can have her check/do.



Make sure the fuel and air filters are clean

Use the correct oil and filters

Run the tires at about 50psi. (no shyt. 50psi. I ran mine at 50-52psi and they were fine. Might be a little noisier, but it cuts down on rolling resistance)

Use the highest gear possible to cruise in, and avoid changing speeds.

When braking, sometimes I'd like to downshift to run the engine/motor/generator at higher speeds to get a little more juice on the regen. Leave it in gear until about 1k rpm. Use a LONG stopping distance with light pressure on the brakes to maximize the regeneration. (some of this is tough to do if she got the CVT tranny...)

Tint the windows (helps with the A/C efficiency)

[Danskman]

Qutoed from "How Stuff Works"; (I know, not to considered an "expert" in everything, but a resource)

"Both the Honda and the Toyota have long warranties on the hybrid systems. The Insight has an eight-year/80,000-mile warranty on most of the powertrain, including batteries, and a three-year/36,000-mile warranty on the rest of the car. The Prius has an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on the battery and hybrid systems and a three-year/36,000-mile warranty on everything else.
The motors and batteries in these cars don't require any maintenance over the life of the vehicle. And the engine doesn't require any more maintenance than the one in any other car. And because both hybrids have regenerative braking, the brake pads may even last a little longer than those in most cars.
However, if you do have to replace the batteries after the warranty expires, it will most likely cost you several thousand dollars."

****

For my driving, an 80,000 mile warranty would last approx 4 years. Who drives 10,000 miles per year on their daily driver? The batteries don't require maintanence while in service, but they will require replacement at some point. A "several thousand dollar" liability hanging out there will be a tough sell in the used car market. I'm curious what the trade-in value of a six year old hybrid will be - possibly quite shocking. I have about 145,000 miles on my '99 4Runner right now, and similar ones are selling between $13k - $15k. I would be very upset if that value were reduced by "several thousand dollars". I can hear the dealer's used car manager right now... "Well, Mr. Jensen, the batteries will need replacment soon on your trade-in, but you're a good customer, so we'll give you $500."

[VaSteve]

I worked it up as a break even of 102307 miles by comparing a Civic Hybrid vs. a Civic EX (more comparable in trim, size, etc.) Both 5 speed. CVT is less efficient. (I had one of the Civic hybrids)


This assumes paying cash and does not factor in the tax credit (which would net you about 560 @ the 28% bracket. With the tax credit, the breakeven is about 75,000 miles.

I want to work one up with financing factored in, but don't have the time right now. Once I do, I will post my results.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Danskman,

Consider also that in 4 years, battery technology will have progressed, and become less costly to produce.

IIRC, a replacement battery pack with all of it's associated things in my Insight would have cost about $1500. I spent that much putting a clutch in my Porsche! Who knows what things will be like for hybrids in 4+ years.

I mean heck, a hybrid isn't using anything that hasn't been around for damn near, or more than, a century.

Electric motor? 100 plus years.
Internal combustion engine? 100 plus years
Batteries? 100 plus years
Computers? 60 plus years

So it really isn't anything new. Think about how much computers have progressed in 60 years. If we could get that into cars, hell, 10 years would provide some AMAZING things!

We're just too dependant upon the current system. We as Americans have been the greatest innovators for the past what, 200 years? Our freedoms have provided us with the conditions conductive to invention and progress.

I'm all for technological progress, and leaving the old ways behind. I'd love the day when I can put a fuel cell in my car for a few bucks, and drive for days, or weeks, or even months on it. It'll happen, but how fast is up to society, IMHO.

[bryanthompson]

I drove 200 miles on the interstate today and drafted behind other, larger vehicles. Crusing down the road at 76, I got an average of 40mpg in the Stratus. Going 200 miles, the difference between going 80 mph and 76 mph ain't much. When you hit the city, whatever ground you gained is screwed anyway.

[Aurel]

If you live in a cold country, a hybrid won`t save you any money on gas mileage, because the battery will not deliver enough power, and you will mostly be running on the gas engine. The power output of a battery decreases as the ionic conductivity of the electrolyte decreases at lower temperatures, following a simple Arrhenius law.

Aurel

[lendaddy]

And the electricity came from moonbeams, so it's just the vehicle emissions we need to worry about.





*credit to another pelicanite a long time ago.

[jkarolyi]

>And the electricity came from moonbeams, so it's just the vehicle emissions we need to worry about.

Another thing most people don't consider with hybrids are the enviornmental impact of all those batteries! Creating and disposing of those monsters must create tons of toxic waste. I wonder how these things are cleaned up after an accident with gallons of acid spiiled everywhere. If it seeped into a bridge's metalwork, you're talking millions of dollars in repairs.

Those tax breaks can't be counted either. Those come out of your pocket one way or another...unless you think like a liberal and then its a free handout.

Hybrids are bunk IMHO.

[Paul T]

If it really is a tax "credit", then you get the full benefit of the $2k taken right off your total tax owed, regardless of tax bracket - it's a full 2k credit. If it's a deduction, then the benefit woud be closer to $560 or so, depending on tax rate.

[FrayAdjacent911]

Paul,

It's a tax deduction. When I had my Insight, it didn't do anything for me, because the minimum standard deduction was more than my itemized deduction including the hybrid tax credit.

Now, if you/someone has a lot to itemize, and have other deductions, then an additional $2k deduction can help greatly.

Also recall, the deduction isn't just one time. IIRC, it was $2k the first year, $1k the second and $500 the third. I might be mistaken, but you get it more than once.

[coldstart]

I think a hybrid makes a personal statement just like a Porsche does. Hybrids should be compared to cars that cost the same, not the identical car in non-hybrid format. For instance, my 1972 911T makes less hp than my RSX but is definitely a sports car while my RSX is a sporty coupe.

My mother was considering the Accord hybrid or a Acura TL to replace her POS Volvo S80 ($15K CDN worth of warranty work, broke down 4x). She bought the Accord. She loves it. She wouldn't love a regular Accord as it wouldn't make the same green/screw the OPEC countries statement....It also has 255 hp and is great on gas....

[FrayAdjacent911]

Coldstart got it right... one must compare the total cost of the hybrid version of a vehicle to other vehicles of the same price, not the non-hybrid versions of them. It's about how that amount of money could be spent otherwise.

And it is a bit of a personal statement, too. I'd get a hybrid not only for it's lower fuel consumption, but for the statement of saying I like technology. I'm not a tree-hugger, but I dig getting more out of a gallon of gas.

[mikester]

I don't think the batteries are regular every day lead/acid batteries. They are likely some Nimh or dare I say lithium variaty.

Let me see if the web site says. A Nimh battery is very light and powerful, lithium even lighter and more powerful but also more dangerous.

[mikester]

Yep, Toyota uses Sealed Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) batties, I won't bother looking elsewhere. Using a lead/acid battery would be self-defeating in weight alone.


Since these are mass produced batteries their replacement cost should not be more than $2k I think, you've got to look at the "part" these are in the car. They are part of the engine/motor so I would tend to look at them in that light rather than as "just batteries."


In these cars you essentially have two drive systems to maintain so you simply have to expect a higher maintenance cost though statistically speaking it's likely lower. Your mileage may vary.

It just makes me wonder; these batteries are great batteries and are not the latest in battery technology, lithium is even better but the heat and charging limitations present problems I'm sure. It is likely though that the amps these batteries are rated for are larger than they will ever see use in daily life. The web sites don't list that info at a glance, just the voltage (yawn).

Furthermore, with the advances that are capable in this "stop gap" measure for more efficient cars is it reasonable to believe that the government is not pushing them more because they don't WANT them? Conspiracy theory - engage...

I am believing more and more that the conservative administrations in place in our fed and calif state governments are using the future promises of Hydrogen as a smoke screen to distract us from the current gas price problems. "Oh, don't sweat it - in 30 some odd years we'll be done with this whol oil business." In the mean time our youth is being spent supporting big oil.

I'd love to buy one but my cars are paid off and I don't want another car payment, higher insurance and to STILL have to pay for gas. I'd rather simply drive less and take the bus when I can.