evacuation of gaza... u guys watching this??

[bryanthompson]

You guys watching this on the news?? I can't believe what I'm seeing.

[jyl]

Not on the news, but reading papers and listening to radio.

What can't you believe about it?

[Tim Hancock]

I can't believe it either. I bet these folks lose their homes to help "establish peace", then not long after the Palestinians will say it is not enough and continue with the suicide bombing of civilians. The settlers will be out their homes , but the whacko's will keep being whacko. (not that I personally care a whole big bunch about either side)

[stomachmonkey]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
I can't believe it either. I bet these folks lose their homes to help "establish peace", then not long after the Palestinians will say it is not enough and continue with the suicide bombing of civilians. The settlers will be out their homes , but the whacko's will keep being whacko. (not that I personally care a whole big bunch about either side)

I'd say that's about right. But it does give Israel the upper hand.

If it does go down this way Israel will take the high road and say "look we tried, we made an effort". Then they can pound the snot out of the Palestinians and no one can give em sh_t about it.

[jyl]

It is sad to see people evicted from their homes, but the settlements were arguably illegal, they were a flashpoint for continual violence, the Israeli government had to maintain a large military presence to protect the settlers, Israeli soldiers were continually being killed on that assignment, the settlements were hurting Israel's larger political interests, and the settlers are being offered compensation of $130K to $400K plus additional $30K payments. So, from a rational point of view, I don't feel really bad about the evictions.

Basically, the Israelis and the Palestinians cannot co-exist. They have to be separated. Either you evict 5,000 Jewish settlers or you evict 1.3 million Palestinians. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2119.html Which one seems more practical?

[stuartj]

Credit where credit is due. Israel is to be applauded.

[skipdup]

Originally posted by jyl
... but the settlements were arguably illegal, ...

Maybe from the Palestinian point of view. The issue is much much more complex than that.

- Skip

[jyl]

I know, hence "arguably".

[singpilot]

You'd have to go back to 1957, maybe even to 1947 to see how this came about.

The Israelis have to give up Gaza; there was no way to defend this island of settlements at a reasonable cost in the midst of all the surrounding Palestinians. It was territory won in the '67 war. Parliament (the Knesset) voted to turn it back, houses leveled, to the Palestinians as well as several settlements on the south end (Gaza side) of the West Bank. Again elected officials (representative of the majority of Israeli voters) approved the plan called for in the 'Road Map' to peace.

Most of the ACTUAL residents evacuated on schedule, with a minor civilian protest. The media event today was people who infiltrated into the Gaza settlements in the last 2 weeks and who wanted to be on TV being dragged kicking and screaming away from territory they had never seen before. Was an embarrassment for everyone involved. The women that brought infants and children in harms way should be arrested and their maternity subjected to a court review.

I have been in this part of the world a lot, as recently as last month. At night in TelAviv, with the windows open in the high-rise hotel room, I could hear the whomp of mortars landing in the Golan Heights, overlooking the city.

There is a plan in place there. Everyone has an agenda, sometimes at odds with the plan. If everyone would just give the plan a chance, it might just work. Not everyone will be 100% happy, but Israel trading land for peace is the only way the Palestinians will get a land to call their own. And the Israelis might get a rest from the shelling.

The Palestinians, to their credit, have been laying low, trying to let the Israeli Army clear the settlements without having to be armed in case of attack. Everyone is showing remarkable restraint. Except the orange clad Israeli infiltrators. Watch the TV coverage closely. The kicking and screaming intensifies when there is a camera in view.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by stomachmonkey
I'd say that's about right. But it does give Israel the upper hand.

If it does go down this way Israel will take the high road and say "look we tried, we made an effort". Then they can pound the snot out of the Palestinians and no one can give em sh_t about it.

I hope this works. It is a good plan and you are quite right. Israel is really on high ground after this.

[RoninLB]

giving up Gaza was discussed in the early 70's and trashed by the US Jew groups. Even the Sat Rabbi crowd was indoctrinated with this mindset at the Temple. I would guess that world politics and Bush leadership was the motivator on this one. Then again Israel may be collecting bonus coupons to use when they feel like taking out Iran ?

[singpilot]

Actually, the 'road map to peace' was seriously implemented in the Clinton Administration. Several administrations have tried variations, but this one has actually been mostly implemented.

So far.

[djmcmath]

Forgive my pessimism, but I don't think it'll work. Historically, nothing that Israel has conceded has satisfied the Palestinians. It'd be great if they'd accept the ground happily and say, "Gosh, maybe those Jews aren't so bad after all." While I hope I am wrong, I've got good money on the Palestinians coming back and saying, "Not good enough. We need more," then intensifying the violence.

[singpilot]

Dan;

The silver bullet in all of this is Jerusalem.

The West Bank (of the Jordan River) is claimed by both sides, I think if the Israelis could control the Golan Heights ( and stop the shelling of the Israeli outposts from there) they'd be willing to allow Palestinian control of the west bank.

Jerusalem is another story. It is the one thing no one wants to face yet. Both sides claim it as sacred ground...the Holy City of two religions.

My bet is that will be the undoing of genuine progress.

[DonDavis]

Sing,
Great info on this. Thanks. I really need to read up on the whole thing as it's a little hazy in my mind.

A question for you. Do you think the Israelis waited untill Arafat passed away to actually get serious about peace or pulling out?

[speeder]

I would have to say from reading this thread that none of us have a very deep understanding of this part of the world. But that does not make anyone here stupid, just that we are typical Americans. A paragraph's worth of info will suffice for a conflict that is historical, monumental and multi-faceted. I am not the last word on the subject, but I do know that some serious reading is required before being able to discuss it intelligently. Don't fall for the bumper sticker version.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by singpilot

Jerusalem is another story. It is the one thing no one wants to face yet. Both sides claim it as sacred ground...the Holy City of two religions.

My bet is that will be the undoing of genuine progress.

I think the current politics must lead to more P jobs somehow or it's a failure. [J-town is way down the road, i think?]
More jobs+ will be determined with a connection to the neighbors. I think it could be real neat to vacation scuba in Beruit some day.. and who knows what could happen on the religious front? Reagan+rc Pope realligned religion in Poland for the next 25yrs, at least. It took them only a few yrs to do it.. go figure.

[Rob Channell]

The Bible says there will be fighting between them until the arrival of the Anti-Christ. Based on that information alone, I'll predict that the fighting will continue.

[RoninLB]

a functioning economy will rock their world.

[creaturecat]

Originally posted by Rob Channell
The Bible says there will be fighting between them until the arrival of the Anti-Christ. Based on that information alone, I'll predict that the fighting will continue.

Arrival????