Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm fed up with the blaming over NO.
 

Unfortunately you represent about .1% of our population. You and I would probably fare ok in NO, but in this situation its not the adults that are dying, it the infants and the old, not to mention anyone who happens need medication (insulin for instance). In the woods there are animals to kill and places to poo when you need to and you don't need to share any of it with anyone. I can't imagine what it must be like for some of the people out there, watching their kids and grandparents die in front of them. Just aweful.

Is this a serious question? How many lost in the desert/wild stories have you heard surviving for a week with a couple of quarts of H20? Remember the guy who cut off his own arm to get out of a rock canyon in Utah?

It's called rationing on the water & food (discipline), and there are very few things that are truly irreplaceable. As to the infirm and children, we used to routinely put 4 adults and 4 children in a VW bug (I sat behind the rear seat w/my cousin). It's all a matter of what you really need. Isn't that what all the SUV's are for?

Edit: Tim has it exactly.
Hope all you guys in CA have your earthquake survival packs in your cars.

Back to the blame thing, from today's New York Times:

The situation might have been considerably less dire if all of Louisiana's and Mississippi's National Guard had been mobilized before the storm so they could organize, enforce and aid in the evacuation of vulnerable low-lying areas. Plans should have been drawn up for doing so, with sufficient trained forces available to carry them out.

It is great for those of us who live in small-town mountain communities, do repeated "survival exercises", go out in the wilderness with just a pocketknife, stockpile weeks of emergency supplies in water-tight containers, are young and strong, etc etc.

Get realistic. How many people are like that? I'm serious, go to a big urban city, go to the poorest areas of town, and survey the average hotel maids, supermarket clerks, busboys, old retirees, and yes, the unemployed mothers too. You know, the people who don't even own a car. Find out how many of them are the sort of well-prepared mountain-man survivalists that you guys are describing. They just aren't, okay? For better or worse, they're caught in the desperate situation that I described, and all this tough talk about how they should just stop *****ing and help themselves is just - honestly, it pisses me off.

If anything, the pleading for help might be getting help to them faster, by drawing attention. Even yesterday Chertoff (Sec'y of Homeland Defense) was angrily insisting in a radio interview that there were not thousands of desperate people at the Convention Center and implying that the reporter was wrong.

So you think that the government wouldn't help as quickly if the Mayor didn't bi_tch and play the race card? I think you need to get real.

Do you think these folks stranded in New Orleans actually have a working vehicle and non-flooded, non-blocked roads to drive out of town? But for some reason, they've decided to stay in the city?

And, do you think the average urban American could survive in the desert and cut off his or her arm and climb out of a rock canyon? What about the average American baby, little kid, and old and ill person?

I'm sticking by my question - are you in touch with reality here? These aren't well-prepared mountain men survivalists, these are totally average city-dwellers. Think, for instance, your mom or grandparents.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050902/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina

"Hell no, I'm not glad to see them. They should have been here days ago. I ain't glad to see 'em. I'll be glad when 100 buses show up," said 46-year-old Michael Levy, whose words were echoed by those around him yelling, "Hell, yeah! Hell yeah!"

"We've been sleeping on the ... ground like rats," Levy said. "I say burn this whole ... city down."

You would think that people were not actually trying to help them at all.

I think they'd move just as quickly to meet the perceived need, but I think they might not understand what and where the actual need is. I tell you, Chertoff was totally unaware of the Convention Center group. That group's begging for help and the media's converage of it did accomplish something.

Edit: "Brown of FEMA said the agency just learned about the situation at the convention center Thursday and quickly scrambled to provide food, water and medical care and remove the corpses." http://khon.com/khon/displayStory.cfm?storyID=6890


The race card - it's not right to play that. But that mayor, from what I've read, seems like a man on the verge of a nervous and exhaustion breakdown. Hard to sit in our comfy chairs and be so critical of his words. Ditto for a lot of the people who you guys are criticizing for sounding "ungrateful". And, yes, some of them are simply mouthy jerks just like in any population - but I'll bet the great majority aren't.

Then, do tell, how do you propose we should have gotten enough buses into the area to get them out? That'd been a nice trick.

Right on Tim! People have lost it!!!

I'm not saying thousands of buses should have magically appeared in the city on day one. I'm not criticizing the relief effort here. I'm responding to the people who are saying these stranded people should stop whining and take care of themselves.

This is pretty intereting prespective of what's going on over there.

This is a blog from a guy, (nerd) trapped in a datacenter in downtown New Orleans.
He along with a very well stocked crew (and armed) are keeping the servers running as long as they can continue to find diesel.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

pictures from the dry side of town

Give that guy a match,
if he thinks that will help.
rika

OK. My bad.

Regarding your earlier post... It was my understanding that rescuers were helping the critical people first. In many cases, leaving water and MRI for folks that were in a "safe" location, to be picked up later (not just left to die as you suggested). Seems to me many people resent that course of action.

This is the largest natural disaster ever. People will suffer. Everyone can't be rescued immediately. People shouldn't start burning the city down because they weren't rescued on their time table.

- Skip

This is exactly my point. At least one person saw it. Jyl can criticize all he want... "because they weren't rescued on their time table." says it all.

How many of you have been to New Orleans? Have you seen the people there? No one on the ground is accusing "...because I'm black..." for the reason they've not been evacuated. They say they have been "Forgotten" as usual. Forgotten because they're poor.

Jesse Jackson is typical of all politico opportunists, particularly as he blames Iraq for taking all the so-called well-trained soldiers who could restore order. Sure, that may have some truth, but is it helpful now to point that out?

The real point is New Orleans is very poor. A third of the residents don't drive and do not have vehicles. The city suffers a lack of political infrastructure. Each time I've been there, I've been appalled by the disorganization, chaos and local resident drunks, homeless and poor wandering around.

The true point is FEMA's budget was slashed - and yes, by Bush. FEMA, however, did train for an emergency within New Orleans, but not of this magnitude. Also, the levies needed repairing. And yes, budgets for that were slashed as well. However, the levies as they were designed could not sustain a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane, so that criticism is a wash.

National Guard. Hell, they didn't do much for L.A. in '92, so how can they be expected to do that much for N.O. in '05? Even with the Nat'l Guard present, L.A. still burned and N.O. is still drowning. Economics are the largest factor. After the Northridge Quake Los Angeles had in '94, our freeways collapsed. But Riordan - our last good mayor, incidentally - had them up and running in 60 days, but with major million dollar incentives to finish the project. N.O. doesn't have those reserves, so it will be a long time before anything gets done.

If there is blame, we should blame ourselves as a country for allowing a third-world-like country such as N.O. to exist. It is both a democratic and republican problem. Problem is, Texas is now going to take a huge hit with refugees. Southeast Louisiana is done for a good year or so. I worry about Texas' ability to absorb those who are crossing in from Louisiana.

I beg to differ dd74, the mayor himself said "do you think they would treat white people this way?". Interpret it how you like.

Granted that the guy who cut off his arm was very fit, but he was no survivalist. Also the stories of the people in the wild are plain janes. I remember a mother in Arizona who got stuck with her child out in the boonies, and survived for a week on a couple of sandwiches, dew and drinking all the "water" available (if you know what I mean). All these examples were to show what is possible.

And reality is this, they were told to GET OUT, and that is what Tech & I wrote about. They had plenty of time before the hurricane to depart, and I contend it doesn't take much to get out of Dodge.

If they chose to stay, they should have been well aware of the risks they were running, and what to do about them. After all, they live in a place where hurricanes happen all the time. They live below sea level. They give out hurricane survival guides everywhere. There were 4 storms in Florida last year (their essentially next door neighbors) that took a huge toll of money and some lives. It doesn't take much to get out (and who would wait until the last 24 or 48 hrs to get out) when the storm is a huge one. This is poor planning on the behalf of those who could have gotten away and stayed, as well as those who stayed for whatever they called their "reason".

As to the sick and infirm, I can tell you it is absolutely idiotic for the decision-makers for the infirm to think that the situation in which they now find themselves is better than any upset/risk that the infirm would have suffered by moving them out of the path. The only infirm that should have stayed should have been those in the hospitals. And if you don't think I know anything about the reality of the infirm, I was in the hospital taking patients down the stairs on stretchers and hand bagging those on ventilators during the Northridge aftermath.

I really don't need to interpret anything, Terry, except that it's a growing pandemic in this country that the poor are being slighted.

Besides which, it seems Nagin is as out of touch toward New Orleans' own census. There were whites in the crowd of mostly black refugees.

Then he should have said "do you think they would treat rich people this way?"

Lets not forget that I'm not saying we shouldn't help. I just think the finger pointing is counter productive.

Yes, because that's the truth. Unfortunately, it's easy to hook one and one together here. Disenfranchised and dark skin = a racial situation, or so certain luminaries like Jesse Jackson would like to pronounce.

Everyone wants to blame Bush, but the primary emergency planning responsibilities lie with the mayor and the governor. The LA national guard is under the direct control of the governor of LA. If they weren't ready to move in and restore order directly after the storm, it's HER fault.

Bush cannot micromanage the entire country.

Just saw a classic video blurb from Nagin (with righteous indignation) "I don't want to see another newsconference about 40K troops being here until they're on the ground next to me...blah, blah, blah"

Anyone wonder why a better plan wasn't in place before all this happened, and after the city & state were repeatedly warned about this scenario. Or why there were no supplies in the Superdome for the people that he was sending there as the site of last resort? Or a plan in case the power went out? How come the public trans system (whatever they have in NO) wasn't used to bus at least some people inland (anywhere) if people didn't have enough trans to get inland? Plus now the buses are probably flooded and a write-off, when they would have been saved by getting them inland. Rant over. Just tired of hearing all the finger pointing from the people who should have had a plan to start with.

Amen, Peter...but we all need to realize that "CYA" is high on the politician's list of talents...

Personally I would have just walked out of there. I- 10 is around 20 miles from NO and hitched a ride with kids and all rather than waited in the Superdome. I'm 47 and would not have subjected my family to that inhumane mess. I've been through 3 hurricanes 1 in Houston (Alicia) 2 more in Fla plus volonteered relief efforts for Andrew and it ain't no picnic but VERY surviviable IF you act with some common sense. That usually means get out of the disaster area ASAP. Usually relief is closer than you think. I remember that after Andrew, in the middle of hell, only 10 miles north was an open Burger King and service stations and Hotel waiting for refugees.

Blame this: If the people who run NO spent as much time and money on a disaster plan as they do on Mardi Gras, those folks would be at a clam bake instead of in trouble.

I have heard Sheppard Smith on FoxNews say that there is now a checkpoint on I-10, the only road out of NO, and people are not allowed to leave the city on foot anymore. This is higly disturbing, as if I was stuck with thousands of people in a soup of urine, feces and dead bodies, my only goal would be to get the hell out of there on foot. There is no worse situation than waiting in a desperate situation, and not being informed. If the intent was to get rid of them all by letting them die, this is exactly how the governement would have done...

Aurel

If John Kerry (or Clinton for that matter) were President and this were to happen under his watch, the Bush apologists (as wells as I, no doubt) would be crying for impeachment and the jailing of every official involved. Take your "can't do" attitude, switch the leadership, and see if it holds up. Then come back and tell me how Bush can't micro-manage the country. Try this:

- Kerry, after a 6 week vacation in Marthas Vinyard does a flyover in AirForce1 over NO 2 days after the disaster.
- Kerrys Secretary of State is off in Manhattan shopping for shoes and enjoying Broadway.
- No one is put in command of any operations on the ground for 4 days
- All the terrorist / security response mechanisms that Kerry promised to improve as a result of 9/11 and our war on t'error completely fail.
- The Congressional Democrats call for an immediate repeal of the estate tax "to help the victims" while the Republicans send up a measure for immediate funding of operations.

Tell me you wouldn't be angry, frustrated, and ready to throw the bum out.

This makes you realize trusting these folks with anything of importance is a real gamble. The government seems to be a magnet for incompetence and attracts those who are unable or unwilling to make decisions. Until this changes, we will be forced to accept mediocrity. Bush is indeed supreme overload of the entire world , but does he actually have to tell his underlings when to scratch their butt?

It is sad that folks are misrepresenting the facts of the situation to use this disaster as political fodder. The Governor of Missippi activated the National Guard 2 days before the storm. He told law enforcement, guardsmen and state troopers to deal "ruthlessly" with looters. Missippi and Alabama are holding up well in spite of the disaster. New Orleans/Louisiana officials partied before and whined afterwards. The NO police dept mostly went AWOL. It is all about local leadership.

I want to say how proud I am of our mayor here in Houston, Bill White. He's a successful businessman that came in to clean up the mess left by Brown. He's stepping up to help the people of NO even though it's going to cause major problems for himself. He's done more for this city in two years than any mayor I remember.

Ah, yes a curse-laden diatribe...MM, what are you attempting to convey?


125shifter, TX has indeed come up big time. I also think the governments of MS and AL have done really well.

From someone that was there:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/2/161442/0257

In time, tough questions will have to be asked about planning and action by emergency reponse authorities at all levels - local, state, federal.

Hurricane flooding of New Orleans has one of the leading natural disaster risks, these agencies have supposedly been planning for this for decades, and there was at least three days' notice that the storm was headed straight for the city.

I don't understand why the city didn't try to evacuate people who lacked transportation and why it didn't better prepare, stock, and man the designated shelters like the Superdome. Communication seems to have broken down badly, despite emergency response agencies' radio networks. I don't understand why the National Guard didn't enter the city in force much earlier, by helicopter, truck, or boat. It's not clear that the New Orleans police department held together, they seem to have been pretty scarce where the biggest concentrations of refugees were (Superdome, Convention Center). DHS and FEMA didn't seem on top of the situation.

It's really early in this mess. I don't know who failed to do their job, or maybe everyone did their job very well and what's happened was just unavoidable. I see that people are already rushing to push all of the failures downhill to the local and state level, and absolve the federal government of any responsibility. I think it's really premature to be placing blame here or there.

By the way, the Dept of Homeland Security has primary reponsibility for responding to major natural disasters. From the horse's mouth, at http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp

"Preparing America
In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort. The new Department will also prioritize the important issue of citizen preparedness. Educating America's families on how best to prepare their homes for a disaster and tips for citizens on how to respond in a crisis will be given special attention at DHS."

I am really impressed by the response from surrounding states like Texas, the generosity of the country (private relief agencies have raised $200MM so far, and the real fund-raising campaigns haven't even started). The individual rescue and aid workers have been heroic.

Edit: I wasn't too clear, hopefully the edits help.

Putting aside who was at fault, the response was not adaquate.

Now, we had days of forewarning on this one.

What if it had been a major terrorist attack?

Have we really made that little progress?

Well if it had been a major terrorist attack, local authorities would have been able to drive to the aid of residents. This collosal flood storm damage is what makes large scale rescue difficult. It seems people are forgetting how difficult this sitution is to handle.
It seems people are suggesting that somehow food for 100,000 people and 5000 personal helicopters should be located near every coastal city in the US at all times just in case the 1 in 200 year storm rears it's ugly head. And maybe 50 new military hospital ships need to be built and anchored fully staffed in every port. Is this what people mean when they say that our homeland security has failed?

I think this situation probably is being handled a little better than it would have been prior to 9/11. Everyone is *****ing, but really, who here thinks that they have the immediate cure for what has happened in these three states?

Oh yeah, what the hell is wrong with the president overflying the area while traveling back to DC. Should he have instructed the pilot to ditch AF 1 in the lake near the levee break? WTF?

Do people really believe that all the rescue organizations involved thought to themselves.... These people are black so we should let half of them die, then we will go in and help. Give me a break!!!!!!!!

:mad:

The following is a partial transcript of an interview between Garland Robinette of WWL radio in New Orleans and the city's Mayor, Ray Nagin.




Robinette: What do you need right now to take control of the situation?

Nagin: I need reinforcements. I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. They're talking about, you know, one of the briefings we had, you know, they were talking about getting uh, uh you know, public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out of here. I'm like, 'You gotta be kidding me!'

This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans. That's, they're thinking small man, and this is a major, major, major deal. And I can't emphasize it enough, man
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1125797422.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1125797459.jpg

1. Disregarding the point that it was not Bush's job to plan for the disaster response and have the NG ready, do really think that Bush is not working at his ranch? Functionally, it makes no difference if he is at the White House or in Texas. He has all the same info and authority.

2. How is this Rice's responsibility? The Secretary of STATE does not deal with domestic emergencies. That's Chertoff's job. Secretary of States are responsible for international relations. Hence the word "State".

3. Good question. Let's ask the LA governor why she didn't have the national guard ready. No, they weren't all in Iraq.

4. The city was hit Monday, all was well. It flooded Tuesday, the convoy arrived Friday. That's three days to mobilize thousands, pack 8 miles of trucks, and drive down there. Not perfect, but not bad either.

5. Last time I looked, congress unanimously voted an initial relief package of 10.5 billion dollars. There will certainly be more. Only a whiner could complain about getting 10.5 billion.