That's interesting, Jeff. Do people really use "buckshot" for hunting deer?

john, you crack me up. you know way more about guns than anyone living in berkeley should :D

i would skip the .410 shotgun. if someone has exhausted all options, and all is left is to kill the bastard, a .410 wouldnt be the best choice. my family has a .410. i sidebyside. i couldnt hit crap with that thing. doves were buzzing me on purpose to make fun of me. poor bastards didnt notice when i switched back to a browning citori. hehe. dove soup!

for home defense, i would get a benelli in 12 gauge. it doesnt kick hardly at all. i think the forces get vented to actuate the action. and any badguys would get the message quick. only downside is $$$$. weapon of choice when the neighborhood becomes a law-less wasteland.

I dunno, you guys are picking appart the use of a shotgun, but I think there is a reason they remain such a popular choice for home defense.

Jeff had mentioned their reduced effectivness at 30 yards, and this is certainly true. But is that a realistic scenario? I think we are all getting caught up in NO fever. I can't imagine a situation when I would be shooting at someone 30 yards away, and not plan on going to jail. Self defense means an immediate threat to your person or your family.


Its ok to defend you castle, just make sure you know where your castle ends and the public domain begins....

Of course maybe you have a house with rooms 30 yards wide....in which case my whole arguement fails..... ;)

I'm not sure if you are pulling my leg here or not, John. In case you are not, I'll forego any smart-ass reply I might otherwise be tempted to provide. So in all seriousness, of course they do. "Buck" = deer, so literally "deer shot". At very close, like shorter than even bow hunting range, it is very effective. For sitting in a tree stand or any similar type of hunting where you wait for them to get close to you, it can work quite well. I have hunted various animals in brush so thick you could not see them beyond buckshot range anyway. In some locals shotguns are mandated by law; rifles are illegal to hunt due to the proximity of houses and the like. Slugs remain a better choice for hunting, but in some areas buckshot is still used and enjoys a rather elevated status beyond its true capabilities. It is far better employed as a man-stopper at "conversational" ranges.

But I'm properly ashamed of it :-)

Yes. In southern Michigan(for example), rifle use is prohibited because of population density. Buckshot and 12 gauge slugs are frequently used. Many shotguns have available 'deer' barrels that have rifle sites and a tight choke.

12 gauge slugs within 25 yards. Now THAT is knock down power

Go for a 20 guage, that is what my dad gave me for my 12th birthday, light, easy to handle. Check with the local gun shops, around here, some have indoor shooting ranges so you and the wife can try a few out. Your best bet is a pump, that is the most intimadating sound known, and it is well knownhttp://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/mgwhore.gif

Another thing is to take a Fire Arm Safety Course and AFTER that, spend some time at the range and learn the weapon

BTW, I use to have a 12guage Street sweeper:D http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1126041881.jpg

I wouldn't pull the leg of anyone who owns as many guns as you do :-)

No, it was a serious question. I've never hunted deer so I didn't know. (Although when I was a kid, I cleaned and butchered a deer that my dad had taken down - with his Chevy Vega. Don't ask.)

harddrive, i agree with you. once the fool is running, and is across the street, the need to kill or shoot him is over. in the house, nutherstory.....i will back my loveones behind me in a corner and hope/pray the guy doesnt peek through the door. he can help himself to anything in the house, just leave the room we are in alone...

What happens when they tell their friend's what an easy target you are and come back after your insurance replaced everything??

I REALLY hope you guys are not serious about underestimating terminal effects of buckshot at 30yds! If your ever unfortunate enough to find yourself in a firefight at 30yds where the combatant has a 12ga with 00 or 000 you had better pray that he is blind because you'll soon have an answer to God's existence.

Seriously, go to a 100-foot range with a 12ga 00 buckshot and a center mass style target - then rethink the 30yd myth posted on a Porsche forum.

Famous last word... "What? They'll never hit us at this range with a shotg.... auggh... , why hello God!"

An answer to a Myth on a Porsche Forum. Sure it's only cardboard but it's "only" 00 buck and at 40 yds.

Anyone volunteer to hold the target at 50yds?

My intent is not to be a smart a$$ but rather to dismiss what might one day prove to be unrealistic advice in an ever hostile world.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1126045401.jpg

Good Post.
I would be hesitant to rely on an autoloader for HD purposes. Reason being, unless you take it out, use it and clean it, reliability suffers. Too esay to chuck it in a closet and forget about it until the time comes to use it.
I have my share of A/L scatterguns, my favorite being a sweet 16. Wouldn't consider it for HD.
But then, I was mostly a B shooter.

racer, i wouldnt go creeping around. i would seriously setup a defensive position. nothing i own is that important to me. and i dont have that much of an urge to kill anyone. in a sitting still position, i am effen deadly with with my sig. with my 12 gauge overunder, it wouldnt even be a challenge. i choose federal hydroshok for my ammo. i think looking for the badguy, both of us moving around, would make it potentially too dangerous for any loved ones in the house. saving my crap ass TV isnt worth me putting a bullet thru a wall, a desk, a door or something and hitting my girlfriend. i stand behind my defensive idea. i know where she is, and if the bastard peeks in, i drop him. simple.

even with dove and quail load, i can mess up someone @ 30 yards.

guns schmuns...you guys are convincing me to go back to my roots: explosives and biological agents. First one is quick acting, second one is...well, not pretty.

Wow, thomas682, I will have to say that is pretty darn impressive for buckshot at 40 yards. Believe me, I have shot a lot of this stuff at patterning boards from a variety of shotguns and have never seen such performance. It is certainly not the norm. Not in my own tests, nor in any others I have seen until your post. Would you let us know what gun these were shot out of, and what if anything, was done to achieve this performance? What is a "wad wizard supreme" and a "wad wizard swat 12"? I see the load written at the bottom is Federal Premium 12 gauge 2 3/4" 00 with 9 pellets.

There is one other critical aspect your pattern board test does not address. Penetration. Try this (I have): get some ballistic gellatin - you can order dry stuff to mix up from ads in many gun mags. Set up a block at 40 yards and "dress" it in heavy winter clothing. Yeah, I know it's hot in New Orleans right now, but we want something that works all year. Put a tee-shirt, flannel shirt, maybe a vest, and finally a heavy lined winter coat, like wool or something over it. Not some fluffy down thing, but an overcoat of some kind. Now shoot it with your 00 buck load. I'll bet you a beer none of the pellets make it into the gellatin. The heavy winter clothing will stop them at that range. Yes, if you were inside that clothing it would hurt like hell, but it sure would not incapacitate you in any way.

While you are at it, try the same thing with some of today's highly touted hollow point ammunition. Believe it or not, much of it will not penetrate that kind of clothing at that range either. Amazing but true. I have conducted these tests myself, as have many others.

The most reliable ammunition, under any and all conditions, will always be FMJ in the autos and hard-cast semi-wadcutters in revolvers or revolver caliber lever guns. No pretty mushrooms or open flower blossum hollow points for the photo ads used to sell bullets, but rather day-to-day reliable performance under a variety of conditions. This would include reliable penetration at ranges a shotgun cannot match. Again, if even medium ranges are anticipated, a shotgun with buck shot is the wrong tool.

HardDrive, I couldn't agree more about the range vs. self defense question. Pretty hard to convince a jury that you were defending yourself if they are accross the street, much less further away than that. The original question here, though, kind of indicated we were talking about a New Orleans type of situation. That is far different than normal day-to-day defensive needs, as I stated earlier. In our normal lives, self defense at home or away is properly handled with a handgun. When legally carrying, there is no other option. For home use, for reasons already outlined, any longarm is more unwieldly than a handgun.

This is what you need for what you describe (including things like your wife not being experienced with firearms):

http://www.tommygun.com/ao_aom110_f.html

Of course, you are going to have to check to make sure an M1 carbine is legal in your area. Illinois does not have uniform firearms laws throughout the state; each local government can enact their own regulations on firearms. It makes the law there a complicated mess.

The best thing to do is to stop by some of your local gun shops; generally they will be able to tell you what is legal. If the M1 carbine is legal, make sure you buy a new Kahr/Auto-Ordnance one (you should be able to get one for around $550). Do not let a dealer sell you a "vintage" M1 or some other "brand." These can be fine, but does not meet your needs for the situation you describe.

With the M1, you will want GI 30-round magazines. You should be able to get like-new ones for $20-25 each. For what you describe (the break-down of civilized society outside your front door), you will want at least ten 30-round magazines and enough ammunition on hand to be able to load all those magazines.

You should probably buy a case of .30 carbine ammo (that's 1000 rounds). The ammo will last for decades if stored in a cool dry place. I like Sellier and Bellot for the quality and price (they're out of stock now, but Natchez's is a good place to order from):
http://www.natchezss.com/ammo.cfm?contentID=productDetail&ammoRecID=1&brand =ZY&prodID=ZYSBA03001&CFID=732488&CFTOKEN=84039982

Your shotgun idea is not the best for what you describe. If lawlessness prevails outside your door, you need what is referred to as "fire-power" -- that is the ability to shoot and keep on shooting for an extended period of time. The M1 carbine is a battle-proven design; it played a major role in WW2. In the hands of either you or your wife, having had reasonable practice with it, and with enough 30-round magazines, it will give you the sort of fire-power needed to defend against the gang attacks that will happen if civil unrest occurs for an extended period of time in your community.

Joe

Found this

http://www.jtrauma.com/pt/re/jtrauma/abstract.00005373-199603001-00047.htm;jsessionid=De9y0VboJetLhC1wgARO2zsiPwX77 Eh00UBj2jgWHlpbvPErEQib!1971627109!-949856144!9001!-1

"The wounding capacity of close-range shotgun pellets equaled that of high-velocity bullets, whereas long-range (>10 meters) shotgun injuries resembled air rifle injuries in their poor ability to penetrate deeper structures and cause internal injuries. "

Just have to replace that pesky 4-round clip with something that holds a bit more:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1126097473.gif

( Ruger Deerfield Carbine, .44 Rem Magnum)

And you can hunt with it too.