Considering a 410
 

I've never owned a gun.

I haven't shot a gun in 15 years. (I've shot .22 rifles, 10 gauge shotguns, 12 gauge shotguns, .50 muzzle-loading black powder muskets, and .30-06 rifles--never shot a hand gun.)

Seeing news coverage of New Orleans has got me and the wife thinking that we are only one tornado or flood away from mass pandemonium here.

I have several questions.

1) Are there any models/manufactures I should avoid? Any I should seek out? What are the differences between pump and lever action?

2) What are the best/accepted methods for storage?

3) Is anyone aware of any gun laws in IL that I should be aware of? I tried searching il.gov and came up with nothing. Any federal laws that I should know about?

4) Do any gun ranges allow target practice with shotguns? I have only shot clay pidgeons with them.

5) Anything else I should know about gun ownership?

Please keep this civil. If your comment is along the lines of "don't buy a gun", don't bother posting. The decision has been made. Much like the political wrangling, a post here is unlikely to change anyone's mind.

If it's for personal protection, get a shotgun with a simple mechanism. Semi-autos are nice, but more likely to jam. Pump shotguns are generally more reliable and single-shot or double barrel models even more so.

Not sure what local laws are, but safe storage depends on whether or not kids are in the house. In California, I think guns and ammo need to be in separate, locked cabinets.

Avoid the 410 - to little shot to make it useful for hunting (with out experience) and certainly not enough for self defense.

Get a 12 ga. pump shotgun - Mossberg 500 or similar, less than $250 new.

They make 5 pellet double ought buck shells for a .410 A .410 would be easier for a woman to handle if needed and "00" will stop anything.

My thoughts exactly. I have no problem with a 10 or 12 gauge. But our intention is to get something that both my wife and I are capable and willing to use. I'm fairly certain that a larger bore shotgun would intimidate her.

I question the suitability of shotguns for in house defense. It's harder to maneuver and easier for an assailant to grab. I can see having a shotgun sitting on your lap while you rock on the front porch during times of crisis, but not when you hear someone breaking in and then coming down the hall to your bedroom at night. Just my opinion.
BTW: If you do hear someone breaking in at night, the last thing you want to do is leave your ensconced defensive position (where you have the advantage) and go downstairs and confront the intruder.
-Chris

Obviously no expert. :)

Mossberg used to make a .410 called the HD410. It was a 6-shot 410 built on a smaller plastic stock. Easier for a smaller person to handle. It had a pistol grip on the forend with a laser built in that was activated when you grabbed the grip.
THe good thing about a .410, by the way, is that it lacks the power to penetrate 2 sheets of drywall with enough energy to hurt your sleeping kids. pets. or domestic servants in the next room.

When you're sprayin' lead in the house, in a fit of Ramboism, you don't want to take out the rest of the family too.
Probably.

Edit: added link to Mossberg HS410

http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm
Scroll down.

The thought wasn't for home defense as much as for defense in a time of crisis. We're both uncomfortable with the thought of keeping a loaded handgun close by--probably the only realistic weapon for home defense. If we were burglarized, we would call the police (we both have cell phones). Besides, the number of police officers living in our neighborhood is the best deterrent of all.

We'd keep it locked away and only bring out if the type of behaviour seen in NO starts happening.

Can't happen here you say? Our wonderful governor has done a good job of relocating gang members from Chicago to our town. Just the kind of people who would take advantage of a breakdown in law and order on a moment's notice.

I'd go with a 20 ga if the wife is worried about a 12ga although in a time of crisis I doubt she's going to be worried about having too big a gun. I think of a 410 as something for an expert shooter or a small kid.

Whatever the largest GA your wife is comfortable with get a pump gun... very reliable and there is something incredibly intimidating about the click clak of one being loaded, that sound alone can send some bad guys running.

You might consider for you survival kit, a 12 GA street sweeper for you and a used .357 revolver loaded with .38 specials for you wife.

I am not a fan of guns, but I can see where you are coming from. If I owned a house, I would seriously consider buying a gun too.

Does anyone have any answers to my questions above other than a preferred gauge/bore size?

FWIW I am not a big fan of guns either... but my first house was in a gang neighborhood where gun fights were weekly events. Amazing how much better a tree hugging old hippy can sleep with a 12 GA next to him in bed while the gangster are out shooting at each other in the night.

Now I am in a much better hood and the shotgun is unloaded and in it's case in the closet. This being earthquake country I don't think I will get rid of it or the 9mm soon.

All this talk of guns has me thinking of getting that .357 I always wanted though!

A 20ga could double as a "fun" gun. A .410 is strictly an experts gun. Shooting skeet or sporting clays once in a while would be fun and keep you familiar with the gun's operation at the same time.
-Chris

Okay I no expert but...

Buy a Mossberg pump in whatever Ga. you like, I have not owned one but they have made a bazillion of them, I have never heard anything bad about about them, and they are relatively cheap.

Most ranged will not allow shot guns because they smoke too much (so I have been told).

Clean and oil gun ever four to six months AND after shooting, again I'm no expert so someone may have better recommendations.

I know nothing about Ill. laws

1) There are a few shoddy Russian gunmakers and what not that I'd avoid but I can't think of their names offhand. Stick with Remington, Mossbery, Benelli, Browning. You can't go wrong. I have a Remington 870 Express 12ga (it's a pump) around here somewhere, it's well made, shoots well, and should last a very long time.

2) I'm not sure what exactly you mean by storage, but, I prefer, a locked, hard case with a trigger lock on the gun. Hard cases are nice because you have less of a chance of buggering something up if you drop it or it falls over. A nice soft case will do the trick, too, if you don't anticipate having the gun in a heavily trafficed area. Keep ammo somewhere low in humidity.

3) Probably not, other than having to get a FOID card. I'm sure you came across that already, though. Other than that? Probably just barrel size limits and things of that nature.

4) I've never been to Bloomington, so I can't say for the ranges there, but the range I used to frequent in my neck of the woods (about an hour North of Chicago) allowed both rifles and shotguns, as well as blackpowder and pistols. I saw a bunch of guys sighting in their turkey guns all the time. Wouldn't hurt to call local ranges though.

5) Yup. Everything you do, now, will affect the gun owning community as a whole. If you kill somebody, it's just another piece in the Anti-Gun Lobby's case, etc etc. "Local gun-owner..blah blah blah". I'm sure that's obvious but, ya know.

And...TAKE CARE OF YOUR GUNS! I know so many people who have guns and never clean them or take care of them, and they are turning to hell. If you handle your gun, wipe it down with a special rag for cleaning oils off gunmetals and wood. If you shoot it, clean it as soon after as you can (don't overclean, either), don't let it sit for a few weeks. Make take a firearms class or something if they have them locally. There are many fine points to shooting that a lot of shooters don't know.

I'm rambling here, so I'll stop. Do some research, shoot some guns, and then figure out what fits you best. And then tell us what you got, so we can let you into the circle and tell you what WE got;);)

Split the difference and get a 16 ga. Nice SXS double. Look at Lefevers as they are good, old, reliable, guns that are going up in value. I have one that is 30" barrels an one that is 18.50" barrels.

Every scumbag knows the sound of a pump shotgun being racked.

Legion, I have a cheap mossberg 12 ga pump that works flawlessly. My 15 and 17 year old daughters have each fired it without issue and they are only about 100lb skinny girls. If they can handle it without issue, I am sure your wife can too. A 12 ga pump shotgun is a very useful utilitarian gun that will serve you well thru the years whether for varmint's up near the house, or home protection. I have a flashlight attached to mine and it is perfect for possum and skunks that raid our cat food on our year deck at night. If you ever move into a rural setting, you will be glad you have it.

If you have kids...get a safe or lock em up somehow..it's the law.
For transport any kind of case will do. They make them in a range that goes from a long tube sock like thing to hardside locking cases. Your choice.

Clean and oil after use and monthly go over them to make sure they stay that way.

My range allows shotguns but NOT with birdshot. It's plays hell with the traps. You can use buckshot or rifled slugs though.

Take a good gun safety course, and get a permit if your state allows it.

That seems a little harsh. Kids should be allowed to go out and play. I can see locking them up at night maybe. :D
-Chris

Don't waste your money on locks, duct tape works fine 'til they're about 14...

Why don't you see if you can arrange for your wife to shoot a 12 guage?

The kick from a shot gun is not as bad as it seems. It kicks, but its not the sharp punch you get from a rifle.

Regardless of the gun you decide upon, make sure that it is short enough for your wife to handle. Guns intended for hunting have long barrels for accuracy, and a typically set up for a mans frame.

Really, if it's for HD only, geta a tactical type stock, Shorten it for her confort and pointability. 18.5" barrel, Extended magazine.
Your .410 idea is still the best.

I too am not sure a shotgun is ideal for in-home personal protection. For that, you have to first think real hard. You are darned near as likely to have a family member shot with that gun as an intruder, statistically. If you decide to, I'd lean more toward a .357 or something. then the important thing becomes target shooting. Until you and your wife are comfortable with that thing going off in your hands.

Then finally, once you are comfortable, and there is no chance a child might get their hands on it, but it's handy in your bedroom, then you both have to remember that if the day ever comes when you get it out and point it at an intruder, you both need to know that it's time to pull the trigger. That's the part you don't want to forget. If you point a gun at an intruder in your house, don't talk. Shoot.

So, it's pretty serious business.

Agree with 125 and would look for a 20 or 16 gauge over a .410. Just not enough shot in the .410 shell casing.

The loads on a 20 or 16 are light enough that a lady or child can handle them fine with a bit of practice, and you do all need to go to a rangen and practice shooting a bit if you are going to own a weapon.

JoeA

Why a .357?

Nothing is going to have the stopping power of a 12 guage at close range.

Hell, just the sound of you cocking a shotgun is enough to get people to run....

Once again, this is not for home defense in the typical sense. I have no intentions of trying to shoot an intruder. This is for ensuring the safety of my family (wife & I--no kids) in the highly unlikely event of a breakdown of law & order. We hope (and fully expect) that we will never take it out for anything other than cleaning and range practice. It will be kept locked and will not be quickly accessible. Our thought was that a trigger lock would suffice for the time being, but that we would buy a gun safe when we thought about having kids.

Based on some of the suggestions, I'm thinking we might have to go and shoot some shotguns to make an informed decision.

LOL!! I locked mine up fro their entire teenage years. It doesn't seem to have effected them much. LOL!

If that is the case, then a handgun may be you best route. A revolver over a semi auto. Wheel guns are a no brainer and easy for all to use. 38 special is a good guy/ girl gun. Easy for both to use and has good stopping power. You say range shooting so I hear handgun over shotgun. Outdoor range? plinking outdoors? Ok shotgun. But based on your needs I think a nice S & W (did a Colt guy type that?) 38 special revolver would fit the bill nicely. I still recommend a good gun course (take it together) and if you get a handgun, get your CWP. Why a lock when you have no kids? I wouldn't think you would need that.

What is your wife comfortable with? A handgun can be better in a tight area, but it might be harder to hit what you are aiming at. A larger weighted 12 guage with a wood stock will absorb most of the shock/recoil. My wife's 12 guage Browing has MUCH less kick than a 20 guage plastic stock my father-in-law bought. I like the Browing A-5, but it is all personal choice and keeping the weapon clean!!

A .357 will be a beefy handgun, you can load it with pellitized shot (it scatters everywhere) and use a .38 calibre. The heavy gun, coupled with the lighter load of a .38 will not kick as bad and your wife will be happier shooting it. I've shown many women the difference between a 9/40mm and a .38 shot from a .357. Only one chose the 40 and that was because her boyfriend wanted a semi-auto. She preferred the revolver. If it takes more than three shots, you are in more trouble than you know.

Part of the appeal to a shotgun (particularly a pump) is that I feel it is a fairly intimidating weapon. If (God forbid) the time came to take it out, it is visible from a distance. Just the sight of it might be enough to prevent its use.

I must have misunderstood.
If you're not looking for "close-range, tactical, home intrusion" scenarios, then yes, a larger bore might make sense. I believe a nice cruiser type Moss 500 or remington, with a short barrel and high-capacity magazine might suit your porposes better. You won't hit what you're aiming at with a hangun in a high-stress situation, without putting a couple of thousand rounds through it first.
A mini-14 or car-15 would also make a good choice of weapon in a stand-off situation. High capacity, high rate of fire, low recoil.
All something to think about.
A gun is a tool. I've used a ratchet as a hammer, but a hammer hammers better!
:)

Good point and every scumbag in the world knows the sound of a pump being racked.

Be very careful before purchasing a pump .410 shotgun. The long slender shells often jam at the chamber or on the feed ramp when cycling the action. Ask any reputable dealer to run several rounds thru any weapon before the final purchase.

There is a company that makes "Coach" double-barrel shotguns that would serve your purpose very well, I think Stoeger is the name of the company. It looks like an old-west stagecoach shotgun that is 1" or so over the BATF legal minimum length. Lightweight, few mechanical problems and an almost instant follow up round. An instructor once quipped, "If a man can take a blast from a shotgun then I'll shake his hand and help him carry anything he'd like to have from my home..."

You'll not miss with a #4 or buckshot and have less worry with over-penetration into a neighbor’s home with a .410, yet one still could use the weapon to breech a locked door if needed. My wife uses one of my old Op's weapons - Benelli M3 Super 90 in 12Ga. Take your wife to a range with low-recoil rounds and let her shoot a few Bowling Pins. Take a 12 and a .410 - she'll chose the .12 and instantly become supportive of your firearm/security initiative.

A shotgun is the ultimate house gun.

Thank you all. I plan on starting to call some local ranges after work tonight. (I don't want to be overheard calling about shotguns at work.)

Edit: Some more info.

My wife has never shot a gun. She has always been opposed to having one in the house--until this week. She doesn't like the idea, but would feel safer knowing we were able to protect ourselves as a last resort. We both fear potential misuse, and our guard against that would be to keep the gun locked--which would make it useless for a break-in.

Her father owns one gun, but it is very old and probably not capable of firing without a major rehaul. He does not own any amunition. My grandfather has 3-4 guns. (Former U.S. Army and New Jersey cop.) I will eventually inherit all of them. As such, we have guns coming our way some day.

Pistol caliber lever action rifles are an often overlooked alternative to the defensive shotgun. In a New Orleans-esque breakdown in law and order, it may be a better alternative. It will certainly have more range than any shotgun, which may be important for establishing a perimeter around you, your loved ones, and your property.

Self defense in a martial law situation is far different than in our day-to-day lives. Normally any kind of long arm is best avoided for home defense; their length introduces problems with storage, manueverability in tight (indoor) quarters, and retention (yes, the bad guys get close enough to grab them...). Under martial law conditions, however, defending oneself at home is not the only concern. Once you leave the confines of your home for any reason, the additional range and ease of hitting of the long arm comes into play. Shotguns don't gain you much out-of-doors in range beyond a good sidearm. Rifles do.

Lever action rifles are available in pistol calibers including .38 Special / .357 Magnum, .44 Special / .44 Magnum, and .45 Colt. A woman or child should have no difficulty with the .38/.357 as far as either recoil or the size of the rifle. Carbines are even better; the smaller ones run five pounds or so, and sport 18" barrels. They typically hold up to 13 rounds (rifles) or 7-8 rounds (carbines). One huge advantage relative to firepower as well is the manner in which they load; pump and auto shotguns share this advantage - you do not remove a magazine to reload them. You can top them off as you go and as the situation allows. Magazine fed guns require replacing the magazine after its capacity has been used, unless you are willing to drop half-full magazines out when it is convenient to reload. With practice, a lever gun can be topped off from loose rounds in a pocket without ever taking your eyes off the target.

Intimidation factor? The sight of a rifle is every bit as disoncerting as the sight of a shotgun. That, and the sound of a lever gun being cycled is every bit as recognized as a pump gun being cycled. The lever gun is even pretty safe to store in condition three - hammer down on an empty chamber. Cycling the lever as the rifle is brought to the shoulder is very fast. A guy in a gun magazine this months mentions a drill he used to put students through that involved shooting skeet with lever guns. He made them start at low ready, empty chamber, call for the bird, and chamber a round as the rifle was mounted. They all got good at shooting skeet this way. Fast, safe, powerful, light, low recoil, reloadable under stress, intimidating - they have a lot going for them.

Good call. Plus reduced logistics if chambered in the same cal as your sidearm!
:)

So now we're talking Winchester model 1894. The "trapper" is a 16" barrel I think. The good thing about them is one stop ammo. A lot of 94's took .45 acp.

Supposing you want to shoot someone who is across the street, that's maybe 50 to 100 feet depending on your neighborhood. If your shotgun load spreads 1 inch per 1 yard, that's a pattern from 15 to 30 inches across. Seems it would be easier to hit someone with such a shotgun load, than with a rifle bullet, if you are of only average skill. I suppose it would be nice to have some sort of sight on the shotgun.

Interesting website on defense ammunition choices for shotguns of different gauges: http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm

Do check out what the local ranges will let you shoot. If you have a shotgun but not a convenient place to practice with it, that's not so useful.

From what I know - which is limited, I've had more experience with handguns - a basic 12 ga or 20 ga pump shotgun seems like a good choice. Cheap, reliable, lethal, intimidating.

John, the problem with the shotgun is that once the load spreads enough to make it easier to hit some one, it has spread enough to be somewhat inneffective. Buckshot, 00 or even 000, has proven in tests to be almost useless at your 30 yard range. Remember, we are talking very small round ball projectiles, like .36-.38 caliber, with the ballistic coefficeint of a badmitton birdie. There are only nine 000's in a 12 gauge load, and if three of them hit a deer-sized target at that range, you have been lucky. They have so little energy left that they leave superficial wounds if they penetrate at all. In other words, as a defensive weapon at that range, all it will do is serve to further irritate your antagonist. Buckshot derives its killing power by hitting as one dense cloud and messing up far more tissue than a single projectile; it looses that effect at short handgun ranges. Even then it is aimed like a rifle, because the charge has not yet spread more than a couple of inches. No, you cannot "spray and pray" with a shotgun and take advantage of any increase in ease of hitting - it's just not a reality within its effective range. They do have advantages in reduced penetration indoors, reduced range outdoors, and increased stopping power within their range limitations. I do think that the range limitation rules it out for this use, however.