Oh how wrong you are. :cool:

You wait; 60 Minutes will be airing soon with the TRUE DOCUMENTS.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1126155931.jpg

Nice job. That's hysterical... :D, and likely not too far fetched...

The obvious answer is the writer is a pinhead, too stupid to know the difference between the LA Homeland Security Department, and the federal Department of Homeland Security.

Occam's Razor strikes again.

Tom

Hey JYL.

Islands, this is how I feel....

We don't know all the details yet, no one does, not even the president or congress. As such, I await for the investigation results before jumping on this goofy blame-wagon.

The president: I think he needs to be able to rely on his agencies. So I do not blame him. If I were him, I'd be drafting plans right now for some serious ass-whippin of my staff and if heads to roll based on the investigation results.


The mayor: they should've done everything in the world, right? This hurricane cropped up very fast and strong in a very, very short period of time. So I don't know what is reasonable and what is not given the short period of time and what resources he had available. I know it's not logical to be able to evacuate a city of that size to mannaland....the "bowl" extends (when superimposed on a map of my area) I could drive 1 hour north on good highway traffic and 1/2 hour south on good highway traffic and I'd still be in the flood zone. Especially given the short time he had. Most hurricanes, locals have the luxury of much time as they watch the hurricane at hurricane force hit the islands, etc. This thing formed basically off the coast of the U.S., and within 2 days was hitting Florida as a tropical storm. He claimed the superdome was the only place in the city to withstand a hurricane of this force and the buses were used to get people to the superdome.

Whether this is true or not, or if there was something else he should've done (negligence) or couldn't have done (inability), we just won't know until the investigation is complete. I reserve judgment on his "failures" at this time. I don't even know what was a negligence and what was an inability as of this time. Even Bush and congress don't know yet.


The governor: I don't buy this crap that the feds couldn't do anything without her "signing something" or "calling" or etc.


The Feds: It's apparent something went wrong there, as the response was the same for both Mississippi and Alabama. I suspect it's communications failures. There is already discussion of sticking FEMA back under the prez, which in hindsight I think is probably a very good idea. But we don't know what went wrong on the federal level and I reserve judgment and "lynching" until the facts are on the table.

It's all speculation at this point. When I read people who drone on about the locals, it's no better than blaming the feds in this manner:

FEMA didn't call so and so and Bush didn't talk to so and so and Bush has to tell FEMA to do this and that otherwise FEMA can't do this or that, and Bush should've told the mayor this, and FEMA should've asked the Governor that, and FEMA had a boat sitting there why wasn't it docked off N.O., and Bush had airplanes, why didn't he move them, etc.

It's stupid. Gossipy, unsubstantiated.

Any anyone who is playing this game on any side is just demonstrating just how utterly unintelligent they really are.

I reserve judgment until the investigation is complete. I'm sure there will be "failures" on all three. I don't care "who failed," all I care about is that it never happens again. And they make sure they straighten out the federal part since that could impact me in my future. I also fund their services.




My View on the levies: yes, Bush cut funding, and Clinton increased funding, but this is how it really is:

Army Corps: I need 40 million dollars
Bush: I'll give you 3 million dollars
Congress: I'll give you 3.6 million, here you go

Army Corps: I need 40 million dollars
Clinton: I'll give you 6 million
Congress: I'll give you 6.2, see we were increased

The presidents/congresses for decades have not been giving what was necessary to protect that city. So that "blame", while includes Bush, also includes Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter...

I also think that this should've been completed years ago and people like Bush, Clinton should've been in the maintaining phase.

Hey you! Arizona is nice. I just love my oceanview down there.

Dude, you rock.

And there may have been valid reasons for FEMA to deny, maybe safety reasons? Maybe they want to be sure they're not distributing contaminated/unsafe products?

And until all the facts are on the table, I'm not going to blindly bash anyone involved in this. It's stupid.

It wasn't that short a period of time. The governor declared a State of Emergency Friday:
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=973
The storm hit monday morning. What they did in the next 2 and a half days is unclear, but at this point it looks to be "not much"

Quote:

The governor: I don't buy this crap that the feds couldn't do anything without her "signing something" or "calling" or etc.

Well, you would be wrong. Google "Posse Comitatus" (but skip the link to POSSE - COMITATUS (dot) ORG, it is a link to some white supremacist assclowns.) If anyone wants to blame a President, Rutherford B. Hayes signed that particular piece of legislation into law.

Quote:

The Feds: It's apparent something went wrong there, as the response was the same for both Mississippi and Alabama. I suspect it's communications failures. There is already discussion of sticking FEMA back under the prez, which in hindsight I think is probably a very good idea. But we don't know what went wrong on the federal level and I reserve judgment and "lynching" until the facts are on the table.

Lets all say this together now: FEMA IS NOT A FIRST RESPONDER.

Their published response time is 72-96 hours for major disasters, which arguably they met. It is up to the local authorities to handle things until the feds show up.

Granted, command and control still seems to be cocked up even now, and that needs a hard looking at.

Quote:

It's all speculation at this point. When I read people who drone on about the locals, it's no better than blaming the feds in this manner:

Well, the locals had a plan, which is still available on the city of New Orleans web site, which wasn't followed, at all it would seem.

It was the local authorities responsability to try and prevent the elderly from drowning in their beds at a nursing home, among other things.

Quote:

My View on the levies: yes, Bush cut funding, and Clinton increased funding, but this is how it really is: Army Corps: I need 40 million dollars Bush: I'll give you 3 million dollars Congress: I'll give you 3.6 million, here you go Army Corps: I need 40 million dollars Clinton: I'll give you 6 million Congress: I'll give you 6.2, see we were increased The presidents/congresses for decades have not been giving what was necessary to protect that city. So that "blame", while includes Bush, also includes Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter...

Well, Louisiana has recieved the more money for Army Corps of Engineers of any state since President Bush took office, and a lot of it was pissed away on questionable projects.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462.html

From the WP article:

Quote:

I also think that this should've been completed years ago and people like Bush, Clinton should've been in the maintaining phase.

Agreed.

Tom

You my dear emcom are one of those I was speaking about:

As far as your locals comments:

The mayor: they should've done everything in the world, right? This hurricane cropped up very fast and strong in a very, very short period of time. So I don't know what is reasonable and what is not given the short period of time and what resources he had available. I know it's not logical to be able to evacuate a city of that size to mannaland....the "bowl" extends (when superimposed on a map of my area) I could drive 1 hour north on good highway traffic and 1/2 hour south on good highway traffic and I'd still be in the flood zone. Especially given the short time he had. Most hurricanes, locals have the luxury of much time as they watch the hurricane at hurricane force hit the islands, etc. This thing formed basically off the coast of the U.S., and within 2 days was hitting Florida as a tropical storm. He claimed the superdome was the only place in the city to withstand a hurricane of this force and the buses were used to get people to the superdome.

Whether this is true or not, or if there was something else he should've done (negligence) or couldn't have done (inability), we just won't know until the investigation is complete. I reserve judgment on his "failures" at this time. I don't even know what was a negligence and what was an inability as of this time. Even Bush and congress don't know yet.

As far as your FEMA's comments, if that's their standard, that's inadequate. Even the president agrees. There is no excuse for an emergency management agency to have service level agreements that do not fall within what's needed to manage an emergency. I do not wish to lynch them for this, I am just looking for solutions.


And

It's all speculation at this point. When I read people who drone on about the locals, it's no better than blaming the feds in this manner:

FEMA didn't call so and so and Bush didn't talk to so and so and Bush has to tell FEMA to do this and that otherwise FEMA can't do this or that, and Bush should've told the mayor this, and FEMA should've asked the Governor that, and FEMA had a boat sitting there why wasn't it docked off N.O., and Bush had airplanes, why didn't he move them, etc.

It's stupid. Gossipy, unsubstantiated.


But you keep having fun with your what ifs and who should'ves and that person is yucky and that emergency group says they won't be there until the emergency's over anyway so they're the perfect little agency crap.

CC,

My only comment about your points is that the various administrations have given funds to New Orleans to do more with the flood control, and a fair amount of it has been diverted to "other" projects, which happens everywhere.

Do agree that the Mayor and Gov were overwhelmed with this and the feds should have taken control and taken care of things once it got out of control. Problem is that then the locals have egg on their faces and no one wants that so the Feds do not want to do this without a very good reason.

Just wish that the mud slinging and name calling would end and lets get this mess cleaned up and move on. Do not even give me this BS about "should we rebuild" New Orleans... it will be rebuilt and hopefully by next Feb Mardi Gras will be a good and happy time in the Big Easy!

JoeA

There will be a Mardi Gras in 2006. I'm thinking of going to celebrate the rebirth. (I was last there in April, I'm glad I went now...LOL).

Flood control funds? How much total, how much was diverted? And honestly now, what difference would it have made when the flooding area when dry would take me 1 1/2 hours to drive through on good highway traffic? Like these funds would've prevented this....LOL

Army Corps are the only experienced ones I would trust to secure this city from a cat 4 or 5 storm as any other reasonable person, and the funds were denied year after year after year after year....

IIRC, they had 96 hours after the mandatory evacuation imposed to get out of town. Seems like amble time to me.

- Skip

We should schedule a Pelican meeting in the French Quarter for Mardi Gras next Feb!!!

I can taste the gumbo already... and a bit of redfish and red wine...

Joe A

Best post on OT, ever!

I would love to see how well the ultra-left and ultra-right gets along in person.

- Skip

96 hours? Where did you come up with that figure up from now?

It was practically 96 hours (actually just a little more) from when Katrina formed, let alone became a hurricane.

hahahaha

Oh heck yes!

We should do it!!!!!!!!

I'm being serious.

And damnit, Wayne, you're the leader here, you gotta come!

I made a type-o. I believe NO had 36 hours to evacuate, after the mandatory evac. was ordered. (I must have been thinking about FEMA's 96 hour response time)

That said, you've confused me. Do you really think 96 hours would not have been enough time to evacuate? How long do you contend would be needed? 1,800 hours? More?

- Skip

We do this, everyone would owe me a b-day drink!! :)

Well, we have had several meetings like this around the country and so far none of them turned into a brawl! :)

I just started the thread about a Mardi Gras Pelican meeting next year, lets keep it moving and make it work!

JoeA

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/239973-tired-mud-slinging-lets-have-pelican-meeting-mardi-gras-next-feb.html

That's better.

Read my post:

I know it's not logical to be able to evacuate a city of that size to mannaland....the "bowl" extends (when superimposed on a map of my area) I could drive 1 hour north on good highway traffic and 1/2 hour south on good highway traffic and I'd still be in the flood zone. Then, I'd have to take these people out of the path of the tropical storm that ensues once it hits landfall since I don't think it would be safe to be in that in the middle of a cornfield. I will also need to get food/water/tents, bathrooms to mannaland. All in 36 hours.

And I'll continue

Now I'm the mayor. In 36 hours I have to drive down the streets, get people, drive them very far (see above) then come back, do it all over again, approximately 100,000 people without vehicles.

Sorry, I think that is totally unrealistic in 36 hours.

The city had at least 300 school busses that hold at least 40 people each. Thats 12,000 people in one trip that could have been moved had someone woken up and used these alone. There had to be city busses that also could have been used. Do this trip 3 times in 36 hours and it would have made a big difference.

The city nor state was not prepared for this, there is no way around it. The sooner that they admit it and move on the better. FEMA should also have had a better plan and it did not get working on things until too late.

Lets correct all of the above for the next storm that WILL hit the area sometime in the future.

JoeA

You crack me up. You don't think things through, do you? You pull just one teeny part of the "plan." Sure he could pick them up, but then what?



Answer it ALL or don't bother. Here, I'll paste it again:

Read my post:

I know it's not logical to be able to evacuate a city of that size to mannaland....the "bowl" extends (when superimposed on a map of my area) I could drive 1 hour north on good highway traffic and 1/2 hour south on good highway traffic and I'd still be in the flood zone. Then, I'd have to take these people out of the path of the tropical storm that ensues once it hits landfall since I don't think it would be safe to be in that in the middle of a cornfield. I will also need to get food/water/tents, bathrooms to mannaland. All in 36 hours.

And I'll continue

Now I'm the mayor. In 36 hours I have to drive down the streets, get people, drive them very far (see above) then come back, do it all over again, approximately 100,000 people without vehicles.

Sorry, I think that is totally unrealistic in 36 hours.





And sidenote, the mayor stated he used those "smoking gun buses silliness" to bus people to the Superdome. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen, but I'm sure you know the answer based on your little internet tidbit "inside knowledge" right?