LOL I"m sorry.

My freaking phone is on. That tells me I'm not getting a signal again. I was looking at new phones today, I"m going back tomorrow, I promise I'll call you when I get it.

You know what I suspect we're going to learn...money. Watch, down to money.

I basically agree with you that we don't know the details, but at this stage, by default, the primary responsibility must lie with local authorities. That's the way government is structured. It's a republic damnit, not a police state run by a centralized government. To the extent we want it to be, we will be greatly disappointed by the insane bureaucracy and red-tape that would follow. That's one of the lessons here. More local authority, and more competent local authorities will be more effective than a big lumbering federal bureaucracy that no one person could control, or be expected to control.

CC,

There have been some rumours that funds to shore up the levy's were diverted to other areas, like promoting tourism and gambling in the waterfront but no proof here.

Its all frigging politics. Money comes in for a good cause and ends up being wasted on some pet slush fund or something that a politician feels is important that week. After he/she is out of office someone new comes along with a new set of values and it usually does not include helping the public, unless it helps them get re-elected.

Oh well... you know the number, give a ring when you slow down! Am going to go jump in the pool with a drink and enjoy life for a while.

Joe A

We don't know if the primary responsibility was neglected because of inability. That's my whole point. We need to find out what could be done and I think maybe even restructure the primary responsibility. The reason is that the locals do not have the kinds of resources at their fingertips like the feds do. They have everything and more that is needed just sitting there waiting. I'm reasonably sure cities can't afford to have all that just sitting "just in case."

And the red-tape, yes, I agree, but that needs to end, or the feds need to give all the supplies, equipment and people needed that are just sitting there waiting to the locals or something.

Cities cannot keep people sitting there just ready to go at a moment's notice (like the military can), all the vehicles needed (gassed up and ready to go) or all the food one can dream of (all sitting there waiting to go).

IMO, the feds are the ones with the stuff to do it fast, the locals aren't, maybe it needs to change so the feds in all plans are the automatically the ones to do it if there's less than 4 days or that the feds throw the keys and the food to the locals immediately or something...

See what I mean? I don't know how to explain it, but the feds are the ones that has the best of the best stuff and people, not the locals.

Ah, and here I was trying to be nice to you in my last post.
I think you need a sedative... you're wound WAY too tight.:eek:

Yeah well I was nice to you in my last post after you were nice to me in your last post.

And no way, I do not do drugs. Not even cold medicine. Not that type of girl. Not to mention, I don't even need drugs, but thanks anyway.

OK. :)

I honestly don't think that "diverted funds" would've avoided this flood. C'mon, you certainly don't believe that, do you? What kind of money would go to the city anyway? This is Army Corps work.

And I'm thinking money (for stockpiling of goods, people, tents, toilets, all that stuff) so at a moment's notice to perform the evacuation that would be necessary in a situation like this. The locals, I'm sure, just don't have the kinds of things required just sitting around.

I've spent the week looking at the logistics of it. The practicality, especially in light of the fact that this hurricane was the fastest thing I've ever seen. What about my city and another Chicago fire? What about ........

Money at the right place & time could have saved New Orleans. And it wasn't that much money (at least in retrospect) $62.5 million.

There is a *****storm of disinformation being thrown around to obfuscate the easily-found facts (30 seconds worth of searching seems onerous to some).

The Army Corps of Engineers is in charge of the levees. I do not believe they have the ability to go build state buildings -- as has previously been suggested. To what extent a state can control the COE, I do not know, but I presume they are under federal control.

The levee problem was identified by FEMA in 2001 as one of the top 3 likely disasters to befall the US. But FEMAs mission was changed that year, and the agency subordinated to DHS. The 'disaster preparedness' function was taken away. Does that mean they stopped identifying the levees as a threat in subsequent years?

It'll be a while to sort this all out, but the more that's revealed, the less competent the feds look. Did Barbour get more/better attention & coordination than Blanco? There's very little reporting on Mississippi, by comparison.

You are partially correct but this is a situation that has been neglected for years, 30-50 or so from what I am reading, and not just the past couple of administrations.

One more thing to add is that the levies were never designed nor intended to withstand a level 4 hurricane. I believe that they were made for a level 3 storm and that was years ago, so they needed to be upgraded and kept up, which it looks was not done.

Joe A

NO is on the gulf coast. They experience hurricanes from time to time. They HAVE a disaster plan. They didn't implement it...
The federal government is there to basically to pick up the pieces after the disaster, to help rebuild, and to provide financial aid in the aftermath... They are NOT there to take control of local government and micromanage the situation in advance. If Bush would have done that, the lefties would be SCREAMING bloddy murder that he had run wild and overstepped his authority. A balanced summary:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1102467&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

This is one sad situation. New Orleans is getting all the attention while the rest of the Gulf Coast is neglected. In the end the areas other than NO will be in worse situations because of this.

JoeA

We are in violent agreement on this. It's not only Mississippi. Even outlying areas of Louisiana are failing to get the spotlight, and the stories from there are far more tragic.

If everyone gets 'compassion burnout' from the ridiculous amount of attention being given to the scumbag looters and robbers, then the more-deserving 98% of the population will suffer.

Yeah, you mentioned you added 12 hours to the actual evacuation order because you are a nice person.

The funny thing is the general plan agrees with you, had you bothered to read it:

A. Evacuation Time Requirements

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Kind of begs the question though, if this is the case, why did the Mayor not make the evacuation order until the afternoon of the day before the hurricane hit?

Quote:

Secondly, the mayor stated that the Superdome was the only place that was rated to withstand SUCH A STRONG HURRICANE. While these schools are rated for a hurricane: Walter S. Cohen High School Medard Nelson Elementary School Sarah T. Reed High School Southern University Multi Purpose Center Southern University New Science Building O. Perry Walker High School Albert Wicker Elementary School We don't know if they're rated for a CAT 5 hurricane!

If you had bothered to RTFP, you would have seen this:

Reassessment of facilities is an on-going process conducted jointly by the School Board, and Emergency Preparedness Division. The shelter activation list is updated yearly, and takes into consideration new school construction, school closings and renovations.

A. Shelter Demand

Shelter demand is currently under review by the Shelter Coordinator. Approximately 100,000 Citizens of New Orleans do not have means of personal transportation. Shelter assessment is an ongoing project of the Office of Emergency Preparedness through the Shelter Coordinator.

What this means is, the shelter lists change, as the situations change. The plan also says in the paragraph after the list of schools:

The names and locations of open shelters will be announced when an evacuation order is issued. This list is not for public information and should not be duplicated and distributed. In the event that shelters are opened, people who go to their nearest listed location may find, for one reason or another, that the facility is not open as a shelter, forcing them to seek an alternate location. It is also possible that people anticipating the opening of shelters may arrive before shelters are set-up and ready to receive them. For these and other reasons, shelters which are to be used will not be identified until they are ready to open and not until an evacuation order, related public announcement is made.

Last Resort Refuges and Super Shelters are described in specific SOPs covering their applications.

In other words, the shelter list is a moving target, based on the specific need. I think it is safe to assume they used the Superdome as a Last Resort Refuge/Super Shelter.

Quote:

Again, we don't know all the facts, and won't know what's negligence and what's inability UNTIL ALL THE FACTS ARE GATHERED and the investigation is complete. Until then, all this garbage about fingerpointing is just layman armchair unexperienced, uninvolved speculation!

You are correct in that we don't have all the facts, but we have enough of them to say with a level of certainty that the City of New Orleans had a huricane disaster plan, and that the plan was not followed.

Because it is wrong. The feds were responding immediately, probably not to the level they were needed, but they were moving.

Plus that pesky thing that everyone is trying to ignore, the fact that FEMA IS NOT A FIRST RESPONDER, and their published response time to a major disaster is 72-96 hours, which they arguably met.

Are you saying they implemented in the past but not this time? What was implemented before but not now? What was implemented before? Why was it not not now? Maybe time?

I do know the superdome was implemented before. With success. I've heard from friends I know down there this is what they've done in these situations.

Again, speculation as to the "negligence" as opposed to potential inability (to get everyone completely out, we have a time factor here and something never done before). MAybe this "protocol" didn't take into account a storm that initially developed less than 5 days before? Maybe this "protocol" never anticipates the devastation larger than anything this country has ever seen before in it's time here and a displacement larger than any time since the civil war?

And personally, I"m sick of partisan crap and 'lefties" "righties" this what we've just witnessed, if this isn't finally a wakeup call to us, nothing will be. We're hopeless as a people anymore.

http://www.torontofreepress.com/2005/cover090605.htm


Tuesday, September 6, 2005

Rampant public corruption was doing big business in New Orleans long before Hurricane Katrina ever hit. What then Congressman, now Senator David Vitter calls "corrupt, good old boy" practices were apparent in the New Orleans Levee Board just one year before the collapse of regional levees, emergency communications and government services brought the Big Easy to the brink of anarchy. In fact, Senator David Vitter requested a federal investigation into improper practices of a number of public utilities, including the New Orleans Levee Board, and a new Task Force was to have been initiated in the Baton Rouge office, beginning in July 2004.

As Vice-Chairman of the Appropriations Subcommittee, which holds jurisdiction over the Justice Department, Vitter met with and actively encouraged Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller to establish an additional Public Corruption Task Force in their Louisiana offices.

With the focus on kickbacks and bogus contractors, who was heeding experts calling for a levee disaster from a major hurricane?

Hence my comments in my initial post:

My View on the levies: yes, Bush cut funding, and Clinton increased funding, but this is how it really is:

Army Corps: I need 40 million dollars
Bush: I'll give you 3 million dollars
Congress: I'll give you 3.6 million, here you go

Army Corps: I need 40 million dollars
Clinton: I'll give you 6 million
Congress: I'll give you 6.2, see we were increased

The presidents/congresses for decades have not been giving what was necessary to protect that city. So that "blame", while includes Bush, also includes Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter...

I also think that this should've been completed years ago and people like Bush, Clinton should've been in the maintaining phase.

Category 3 huh?

LOL


Maybe because this storm didn't even exist until Tuesday. Maybe because it was just a tropcial storm on Thursday....

I'm telling you, this storm CREEPED UP FAST.

And your post doesn't describe the government doing the physical evacuation. Usually, people evacuate on their own, this may be a standard for the people to evacuate themselves, which is usually what happens. This very well may be describing the evaucation via car/SUV, etc.

Innuendo, speculation, armchair disaster experts who were there drafting this plan, gotta love it.

The city was a victim.

Agreed however do not stop with Carter and please include the people of NO and state of Louisana. The city and state is also partially responsible for the upkeep of the infrastructure around the city not just the govt in DC.

JA