The MIT Paradox
 

MIT is touted as a school where the best and brightest go to be educated in the sciences...and truly many of our greatest technological advances have orginated from the place.

However the place teaches one how to be quanatative in ones approach instead of qualitative....and that puts one at disadvantage. because it limits ones perspective of the universe. One has to realize the subjective is as real as the objective., and while I havn't tested the theory maybe even more real than the objective. For it is out of the dream state of imagination that the advances in technology are derived. Much like a flash card popping up from the imagination. That spark of light that illuminates the shadow.

Albert Einstein did much of his work on relativity, not while he was at the university, but while he was working in the patent office. His peers rejected his theories and advised him to give it up.
When education becomes a business, the joy, or spark if you will, is lost. Successful inventors, it seems to me, are those who have had an idea come to them and have a passion for the child of their mind. I fear academia does not foster many such children.
Les

I was wondering if Jefe was going to chime in. Go Wayne!

Tabs,

Go play with your "new toy" (very nice BTW)

You must be really bored to think up sillyness shuch as this.

OK I shouldn't admit this but when I was "across the river" at Boston University I was a semi-competetive "Magic: The Gathering" player. My first tournament ever was at MIT. I ended up sweeping the tournament and taking home lots of great loot. It was a high enough honor though, just to have trounced all those poindexters.

Long live the Smoot!

Re: Re: The MIT Paradox
 

Thats one of the things I really appreciate about an engineering degree... problem solving skills.

I like how tabs' posts are sometimes complete rambling crap. My inital guess is that happens when he's drunk, but I wouldnt bet against him stealing some of mothers pills.

Heh. I had a QuakeWorld server running at MIT for years. A buddy set it up in a closet just before he finished his PhD, gave me ssh access, and didn't bother telling anyone about it. Lasted 4 years that way.

Re: Re: Re: The MIT Paradox
 

But does a degree from a better university = better problem solving skills. Problem solving skills = ability to get things done in the real world in my book. I do not practice in engineering, so I cannot comment on the usefulness of the theory and math.

I've made this argument before, because as far as I can tell....it's true. I got my ph.d. in chemistry from Caltech (and of course we all know Caltech is superior to MIT :p ). Anywho, I now run a new media research center, and as of the first of the year will be transitioning to a research position, probably working on a disaster preparedness simulation/game. I've consulted for the CIA on terrorist issues, been a university webmaster, and who know what my next career will be. Disney was pretty hot-to-trot for me to be an ED of technology for BuenaVista TV.

Obviously this stuff had nothing to do with my graduate education, right? I mean, how does learning chemistry teach you to do all this other stuff? Well, to me it is clear/easy. I learned how to understand data, synthesize knowledge, and solve problems. At a certain level, the vehicle you use (in my case chemistry) becomes almost irrelevant.

The great schools give you the skills to solve problems, not be a fact-spitting drone.

I'm going to bounce you one more time..

Once you realize the subjective is as real as the objective then you can begin to apply objective methodology to the subjective. And that is in a nutshell what I do. Once you learn your ABCs the door opens and the light begins to shine through, and so much mystery falls away.

Ohhh Mothers little pills don't do anything at all......

Most Universitys train you how to think....to fill in the forms so to speak...

Emotion is never irrational, ignorance of the who, what and why causes of the emotion is what makes for irrationality.

I understand the Engineering mentality real well....Daddy describes himself as a "Scientist" but what he really is, is a Chemical Engineer/Materials Engineer/ General Engineer....he sure does know how to make a train run on time...

don't confuse a scientist with an engineer. two different beasts.

CAL Tech ....MIT whats the diff....both turn out pointy, little egg heads....

Perhaps being a "Scientist" is a state of mind...Engineering is the practical application of scientific principles....specfic quanitative knowledge...for lack of a better description.

It's not fair...I'm too quick for U boyz....you boys are fettered to your problem solving motif...whereas I am amorphous

...and rude as well.

This is a somewhat interesting discussion. I graduated from U of M (which we all know kicks the crap out of CalTech) with a Computer Engineering degree. Now, when I was in school, it seemed that a lot of what we were learning was nothing more than high-end trade school skills. Kinda like being a plumber or electrician, but with code and signals.

"But where is the creativity!!@#%!# Why can't we build cool stuff? This place is for suckas!"

Without fundamentals, your creativity is can only go so far. The same is true in music and in writing IMO. I've found that Im far more creative and much more able to execute on those ideas now that I have the foundations to back it up.

Im of the opinion that school is work, the rest is play. Thats why I formed the Student Project Lab at U of M and built a place for students to come in and build all the wacky stuff they couldn't do in their dormrooms. And even with that amazing resource we only had a handful of kids who came in and used it.

As for MIT, they have some pretty kickass competitions for their students from what I've heard, and some classes that are purely imaginative and creativity based. Very cool stuff happening over there. U of M had a video games course where students were going wild with their ideas, none of which could have happened if they hadn't spent the previous 4 years sorting data, learning algorithms, and doing matrix mathmatics.

Yes Yes I've heard it all before....Mother keeps reminding me that I am rude all the time...it just seems to exasperate her to no end. I frankly don't know what to do about it, I sometimes forget that I'm dealing with the simple folk, and as such get so fustrated that I forget that I must go slower with them.

Hey Michigan did you know Robert Lupa when going to UM...

Nope, never heard. A prof?

I think that not withstanding ones taste in Art, we can all agree that Picasso was a creative guy...yet what he strove for was the freedom of expression that a 5 year old has. Which I believe is about the age where they begin to fetter people with those "Foundations" of problem solving skills.

Time Magazine once published 2 drawings side by side one by a 5 year old and the other by Picasso...it was real tough to discern who drew what. The difference was that Picassos lines were more controled. He had to work at the freedom of expression that a 5 year old has...

robert was a Computer Science Major at UM...his first job outa the box was writng software for a company in the S of France...his whole family is really bright...quicker than I am...but what am I saying he is a cousin of mine...

yeah, this sounds like the old Classical vs Romantic argument thats been gone over for eons and eons.

Who was it that said free-form poetry was like playing tennis without a net?

Robert Frost.

Part of my arguement is that Creativitiy is something more/beyond applying the rules of problem solving. It requires a spark of the intangible.

Some of the more well trained in problem solving may think that I am aimlessy wandering again spewing all sorts of jibberish...but U boyz should realize by now that I don't play the game unless I have an Ace in the hole to trumph with... I've mentioned my friend in Academia, one of the things he's working on is a theory on creativity..

According to him...creativity is when a ordered pattern starts to break down and becomes more and more chaotic until finaly it breaks down completely and explodes and starts to form a new pattern or new way of thinking. Thats why people who live such chaotic lives can come up with new inovations or ways of expression.

Mother is accusing me of trying to push the retards down the stairs again with this thread...I totaly deny that I'm doing any such thing, the people I'm having a discussion with are far more intelligent than retards.

we aren't talking football. or basketball. or baseball... :p

Right now, there is a lot of cycles being spent on creativity and innovation (USC just stole the Damasios, and they work on that very topic: http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/11734.html). It was interesting at Caltech because I had colleagues who had amazing work habits and cranked out results and papers like there was no tomorrow. But when it came time to do props exam (which amounted to coming up with new research ideas), they struggled. I otoh, could barely bring myself to the bench, would work in fits and starts, and got enough results to get an answer, then move onto the next thing. A props, I had way too many ideas to write up.

I think it is a combination of nature v. nurture, but in order to function in today's environment, you need to have some pretty good chops, and should understand technology to some degree. The sad thing is that science has been so poorly taught over the years, people have been turned off to it, and miss the applicability to everyday life, and more importantly, how it can spark creativity. An understanding of the elegance of nature's solutions to problems serves as a deep well to dip into for inspiration, no matter what the subject matter.

Oh, and it helps to be an artist/musician on the side. Interesting that quite a few of the best scientists I knew also had a serious creative streak.

I've worked with a fair number of MIT grads over the years at my company, and so far they have left me very unimpressed. Most are too busy lording their parchment over others' (I'm a lowly Cornell grad) to actually focus on the task at hand and solve the problems we are/were working on.

Wayne, I'm sorry to say, but you seem to be the exception to the rule, in my experience anyway. Or perhaps my company attracts a certain type of MIT grad.

Beautifully put Nostatic....

You leave those boyz at UM looking like a bunch of farmers..

I was wondering when you'd chime in...

Ohhh to be sure I am pushing on you boyz to understand the subjective is as important or as real as the objective. And that I have be at it for awhile. That it should not only be paid attention to but taken seriously...

Now lets see how clever you boyz really are....in my preceding posts I have thrown some fast balls at you heads designed to be provocative.

Lets see if you can pick them out and decipher what it is about them that makes them provocative.

You silly bastids are following into the "TABS TRAP". Ol Tabby has weaved this arguement and jotted down every objection and counter attack with the endgame of goating you into a dibolical debate.

You can't ignore him and you will not win - best possable outcome is a zero sum because the very premise of his thesis is flatuance.

Just think, the fart you smell was a cramp in someones rectum only seconds earlier...savy? If so, you just wiffed a Tabby SBD. Not for the weak of heart or anyone with a lung condition.

FWIW - MIT and CalTech are techological leaders - that is undisputed.

This evening while I was watching reruns of Gilligans Island I gave this discussion some thought.

I could come back to this thread and retort...."Wayne I told you I strive for perfection." Which is a reference for his ..."Tabby can be off the wall" comment.

But to some degree that would denigrate the central premise of my arguement and that I don't feel like doing...THAT THE SUBJECTIVE IS AS REAL AS THE OBJECTIVE...and when I say I use analytic methology on the Subjective I am deadly serious.

Lubby is right about one thing..."U will not win"..and it's not because my "premise is flatuance" but because I am playing the game 2 fking steps ahead of you..and why pray tell can I get 2 steps ahead of you...because we are all fking SUBJECTIVE BEINGS...thank you, and I have simply given this subject significant thought.

Now it has occured to me that some people might consider my conversations with Mother to be well a little strange...but I assure you there is more there than what first meets the eye.

So now that I've said what I have to say it's back to shuck and jive time.....

...not to mention a significant amount of gin and tonics, it seems... :p

Calling IT dept - "coffee just sprayed from my nose all over my keyboard and screen...what should I do?"

That is the funniest retort I have read in months, maybe ever!

Wayne, not to kiss arse but that was good! Worth the coffee sinus anema!

yin/yang

objective/subjective

producer/consumer

You could be right. The only MIT grads that I have the good fortune to personally know are busily managing their own firms. Cindy & I found them to be extremely bright and creative people who are "class acts". I'm still amazed that they're so nice to me, a dumb ol' country bumpkin.
I haven't read any of tabbydoll's posts of this thread, just clicked on it. He's been on my ignore list for years. But I find it amusing that he decided to shut up on this one. Perhaps he figured out who has the power to ban him? Then where would he go? He brags of being banned from nearly every other board he taps into. To my way of thinking, this illustrates just how tolerant this board is. :D!

There are perfectly good things for systematic roblem solving. Thee Gilbreths and their time oreinted effeciency work would be a good example. At work, I keep a clock in front of me, and keep track of how long it takes to do tasks, and retrain myself in different ways, until I find one that is quickest. Just like a racetrack, if you set yourself up for exit out of the parts bin to be machined, you may bei nthe wrong orientation to quicklyput it in the CNC machine's pallet, and are loosing time there. Several ways to do this, go back to the previous job o the parts, sit there, do it, come u pwith a way that puts the parts into the bin how i want thme ouut of the bin, and make that way faster then the old way, then, i ahve parts arriving how I need them to gofaster - OR, change how I take parts out of the bin. (I often do the 1st a we are fairly fluid at work, I'm not jut stuck on one job, although I do the one no one elses like as I love it, manualy intensive machining, i pretend the parts a racetrack and see how well I can get everything right - and fast).

There is also a lot of room for unstructured thinking, some of my ideas come from there as well. I've found as I've grown older, i've started putting both to use. I used to be more on the imaginitive then practical. Now I can work in either, but I've sacrificed some of the imagintive for the practical, I can tell that. I miss it. But my end results now are perhaps just as good, but often more practical.

Its fun to desing body work that would be impoosible to make work for pratical reasons, even better when I design a chassis I can go out, build, fit RC car componets to, and run.

Such as this little guy, which combined both. RC mosnter truck wheels, with independant raicng suspension and low CG chassis, twin eletric motors for more torque, 2spd, 4wd, etc... Very light for an eeltric race truck, only 9lb's with body as pictured. Most Race E's are 10-11lb's.
http://www.unlimitedengineering.com/...ewchassis2.jpg

here's a few clips of me drivnig it like an Idiot, on the track its a much calmer slower steadier win the race style. :)

http://www.tervurendog.com/truck.wmv

Colledges are aimed more for specializiation. IF you have trouble with a colledge's specialties, then just either don't attend colledge at all, or find one you like. :) We need a variety of people in this world, can't all be the same you know. As such, I don't realy see the purpose of the orignal rant.

Tabs just stirs the pot sometimes - if it ain't done, the sides get sorta crusty. Its good to stir the pot provided you don't get nutty and start splashing hot stew all over...

F'n Crusty side out...

MIT, CalTech, Engineer, Scientist.....the marketing and finance guys still make more money. :D

The Sloan School at MIT is just about the best b-school.

The guys that do science do it for the love, not the money. The engineers who also want to make money end up starting their own gig a la Dempsey et al...

I'm still not sure what your getting at tabby. Are you knocking the institution itself? I guess I can see that. Its driven a good bit by research funding... weapons/defense related or 'next big thing' stuff.

But they do still pull in a decent number of Nobel Prize level staff.

Give us a bit more on your educational background tabster so that it will help us to understand where you are coming from. ;)

Logic is the First Casuality of War...
 

Chutes and Ladders ....equates to childish games, while the writer is all grown up and uses his time for more productive ends.:)

I think thats concise enough....

BTW: "Two steps ahead" is a dtw attribution.

I might as well get out the nuts and bolts now...Hmmm Tabs makes point A...a correspondent says."It hits the nail on the head." Tabs make point B....
Tabs is making sense"....Tabs makes point C...Ouuuu I don't know, that seems "off the wall to me" and is just plain "silliness." Given that pont A an B have validity point C has to be given due consideration and further it has to be acknowledged that point C maybe beyond your understanding and at worst has to be given a I just don't know about that one. benfit of the doubt..
:)

So when I say that being merely quanitative leaves one at a disadvatage, it'sd saying your tying one hand behind your back..that the world is made up of both the Subjective and Objective...and that the Subjective is as REAL as the Objective. MOre importantly the Subjective better be paid attention to or your in one world of hurt..

I hope this gives explaination enough.. I also feel that maybe I shouldn't have given the explaination and should just have left it as...yep thats all I play is Chutes n Ladders...