Tell me about home sub-woofers...do I really need one?

[Vipergrün]

So, I am putting the finishing touches on my home entertainment system and the only thing I do not have is a subwoofer, partially because I do not know if I *need* one. My front speakers are older Infinity RS-3's and have a range of like 40Hz - 20,000. Most of the subwoofers I have seen only go down to 25-30Hz. The RS-3's have a really nice range, but I still think I want a woofer. What's the probable range I'd cut off the signal for the sub? 60Hz? Or will that leave too much crossover with the fronts?

Also, if you are looking for a LCD projection TV, the Sony 55" is a REALLY nice unit, just got mine delivered this morning

TIA

-Brad

[scottmandue]

I have a CW 15" 250W sub and it is WAY over kill....
I think it runs up to 150 Hz (adjustable) which makes for nice overlap with my Sony towers in front thay probably go down to 60-40 Hz.
Pretty much only covers bass drum and pipe organ... oh and if you watch movies where the blow things up.

[gchappel]

I do not like subwoofers for music, I have never heard a system that the subs sounded right- and yes I have heard properly set up high dollar systems--darn my own music system cost more than my porsche but don't tell my wife. I do really like subwoofers for home theater, which I think is a whole different kettle of fish from a musically correct system. Get a large over powered subwoofer, I actually like a company called Hsu. They are cheap and do a great job with movies, just turn it off when you listen to music. To complete the system try the buttkicker or clark synthesizer- which you mount either to your couch or floor joist, and they actually shake when Arnold blows something up- really adds a lot to the experience for a couple of hundred bucks.
Get a sub for the movies, not for the music.
Gary

[88BlueTSiQuest]

Yes, you do need them. There is more and more media coming to DVD that features frequencies well into the subsonic ranges. Even the THX sweep touches 10hz at times. The movie 'Finding Nemo' had notes that reached down to 12hz during the scene where Darla was tapping the fish tank. The ring drop in LOTR: Fellowship hit 5 hz in places.

Depending on your budget, there are subs that are highly recomended that will play these frequencies, and one of the best out there is the SVS subwoofer: http://www.svsubwoofers.com/ Read through their pages, they have some highlights of certain movies, and the low end frequencies that are hit during specific scenes.

SV Subwoofers aren't available in stores, so you really can't go listen to them. But read the reviews on that site, then visit http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/categories.php/Cat/ click the 'home theatre' tab, and go down and browse the forums for the SVS forum, there you can read some non-biased user reviews and comparisons.

I'm not affiliated with SVS, but I really want a couple of the Ultra 16-46's, just can't afford them at this time.


As to the crossover frequencies you need, you'll have to play around with the settings for what sounds best to you in your room. Most receivers have simple settings based on the size of the mains. It's generally recommended that no matter how good or big your mains are, you should set them as 'small' and allow the sub to take care of the rest, as this is the best useage of amplifier power(both receiver and sub). It takes most of the strain off of the receiver, so that you have more headroom for the mid-bass and up regions, allowing the sub to do what it does best.

A properly calibrated sub would seemlessly integrate into both movies, and music, but the key word is 'calibrated'. If the sub is not set-up correctly, it can be overpowering and boomy during music, thus coloring the sound.

[Hugh R]

I'm not an expert by any means but how big is your listening area? To really get the "feel" of a subwoofer you need to be a good 20-30 feet away from it. Wavelength of low frequencies and all that.

[88BlueTSiQuest]

Originally posted by Hugh R
I'm not an expert by any means but how big is your listening area? To really get the "feel" of a subwoofer you need to be a good 20-30 feet away from it. Wavelength of low frequencies and all that.

Room gain accomidates for this. You can sit right next to the sub and still get the effects of it. My sub sits about 6 feet away from me in the theater room. The key is placement.


My 15'(18 if counting the space occupied by the TV and racks) by 14.5' theater room.

[Saintly]

I would say that a sub is a must for any home thearter system.
It compleats the sound and fills in all of the base. It also makes a huge difference in movies. explosions need base.

[campbellcj]

Proper bass response is crucial for home theater AND music. It is really amazing the first time you hear how much you've been "missing" if you're used to listening to mains with sharp attenuation at the bottom end. I even have a (cheapo) 10" 150W amplified sub on my office PC upstairs...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Setup really is key, you can find CDs at most high end home theatre stores and I think on Crutchfield that assist you with the process. They're useful because they have repeatable patterns of different frequency sweeps, essentially with a sub you have to move it until you find an acoustic sweet spot. Different positioning (i.e. port into corner) can make a big difference too. You won't believe the difference though, spend the cash for a good one and it'll become a must have, even with music.

[lendaddy]

For cinema, you want it more for feel than sound. T2 was always a fav to demonstrate this to people. The opening scene with the machines crunching over skulls with their tracks is an experience in a proper theatre room. BUT I keep my big sub (2 x 15") disconnected till movie time. As mentioned earlier, you won't hear much of it near 20- 30 Hz. But you WILL feel it, and that's what action movies are about IMHO.

[Willem Fick]

Yes, you absolutely need a sub, and as Lendaddy said, feeling it is what it is all about!

What you must do, is to have a listen to a "Contrabass" unit (116dB @ 16Hz), after which you will gladly sell your family into slavery in order to afford one!

Oh yeah - this is what happens when you "discover" bass:

http://members.tripod.com/~BassPig/

Cheers!

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by 88BlueTSiQuest
Yes, you do need them. There is more and more media coming to DVD that features frequencies well into the subsonic ranges. Even the THX sweep touches 10hz at times. The movie 'Finding Nemo' had notes that reached down to 12hz during the scene where Darla was tapping the fish tank. The ring drop in LOTR: Fellowship hit 5 hz in places.

Love the way my windows shake with "The ring drop in LOTR"

As has been said, very little music comes out of my sub. I'm a bass player and maybe there are some low harmonics coming through there but you really can't tell. The only music I sense coming through the sub is the kick bass drum when listening to RnR which may or may not be annoying depending on if you like your rib cage rattled.

[wludavid]

Originally posted by Hugh R
I'm not an expert by any means but how big is your listening area? To really get the "feel" of a subwoofer you need to be a good 20-30 feet away from it. Wavelength of low frequencies and all that.

I'ts actually a bit of a misconception that low frequencies need room to "develop". Room placement is very important with subs, but you really don't need a lot room to make good use of it, you just have to make good use of the room you've got. With home theater, though, the "bigger is better" argument usually wins.

And the problem with using the frequency response specs from the manufacturer is the same with using peak hp from a car maker. One number doesn't tell the story, as all speakers will respond to some frequencies more than others, as will amps, and everything else in your system. Ideally you want all the frequency response curves to be flat, and having multiple drivers is the best way to do that - it allows each driver to only respond to the frequencies it does best.

[Paul T]

Really need one for movies IMO....as said above, the "feel" is just as important as the actual bass. You can always switch off for music and just run your mains if you think it sounds better..depends on your setup and preference.

Look here, some of the best subs around http://www.svsubwoofers.com/

[scottmandue]

I was going to get one of these, I haven't heard one but they get great reviews:

http://www.velodyne.com/main.aspx

However as with most things in life I had to compromise due to my budget. I must say I am happy with my CW sub although I have to keep it turned down so it doesn't rearrange the furniture.

[Vipergrün]

Great info! I am trying to decide which kid to sell as we speak

Another question...I have seen what appears to be speaker leads on some woofers. What are these for? Do the front/rear speakers actually attach to the sub? Guess you have guessed that I am not an audiophile....

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by bb80sc
Great info! I am trying to decide which kid to sell as we speak

Another question...I have seen what appears to be speaker leads on some woofers. What are these for? Do the front/rear speakers actually attach to the sub? Guess you have guessed that I am not an audiophile....

Many subs have passive crossovers built in. You run your front leads in (R&L) and they come back out cutoff at say 120Hz to protect them from the real deep stuff. I never cared for them and prefer active stuff (done upstream electronically), but unless you're a nut you really don't need them at all as the ProLogic sends the signals where they belong anyway(Sub has it's one dedicated channel from the receiver/amp). Music is another story.....but music usually sucks on theatre systems anyway. MHO

[lendaddy]

I should add.


I was a sound home/auto nutball for years and have learned lessons. If you are building a little home system, don't go too crazy as you will NOT use it. I mean you will.....but you won't. What I mean is you will have a ball bouncing wine glasses accross the counter during the THX opener for a couple weeks and then the system will rot. You will rarely if ever use more than 10% of its potential from then on.

So buy a good receiver and a great TV and the rest isn't worth going nuts on. Maybe spend a lil extra on your mains but you don't need to.

Again, JMHO.


Edit: Just saw that you've purchased the other gear already. In that case forget what I said....It is the best money you ever spent and it will bring decades of thrills, I know mine has

[88BlueTSiQuest]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I was going to get one of these, I haven't heard one but they get great reviews:

http://www.velodyne.com/main.aspx

However as with most things in life I had to compromise due to my budget. I must say I am happy with my CW sub although I have to keep it turned down so it doesn't rearrange the furniture.

Check the Velo performance against that of the SVS subs. You might be surprised to find that you get more sub for less money with SVS.

The coolest part of the SVS is the 'tune-ability' with the port plugs that come with them. This was SVS's way of saying that no sub is perfect in every environment. Velodyne tryies to use servo attenuation, but this is by no means perfect, and tends to make the sub a natural when it comes to music reproduction.

I generally shop for a sub based on specs, as a sub generally isn't as subjective as mid/highs. A sub's overall job is to displace mass quantities of air, without adding 'coloration' to the sound. The lowest frequency playable by most subs is measured in an anechoic chamber, so actual room response will vary(usually in favor of lower frequencies played), but room gains can also add to the upper frequencies the sub can play. Most of the good home subs are capable of several inches of peak to peak excursion, and generally require over a kilowatt of power to do so. I believe some of the best 'store' subs on the market to be the Sunfire Signature MKIV, Definitive Technology Supercube, and the Earthquake Supernova 15" MKIV. But once you look at the prices of those monsters, compared to the performance out of even 1 SVS tube sub, I even tend to forget about my love of name brands.


The current sub running in my theatre is a custom built box with 2 10" Pioneer Premier subs(car audio). I designed and tested the box to reproduce down to 15hz, so this gives me all the 'couch shaking' one could want from a theater. I'm thinking of building another identical box, and quadrupling the power going to it, just to have that much more tuneability and power in the subsonic frequencies.


Home audio is just as addictive as cars are.....

[88BlueTSiQuest]

I also forgot to mention.... On subwoofer placement, the key is to find the room's lulls and voids. It's generally recommended that you place the sub in the seat that you will be listenning to it in(yes, in your seat). Walk around the room while playing media with good bass in it. When you find the spot in your room that the bass is loudest, this is where the sub should be placed, to achieve the same effect on your seating position. There is no real method to placing a sub in a room, as all room's are different. Alot of times you do get the best results with the sub in a corner, but aiming is the key, sometimes it works best with a port firing in the corner, sometimes with the woofer itself firing in the corner.

There's a ton of trial and error in sub placement, but once you finally find the spot it works best in, you'll be happy.