At this rate, this war will never end. It's not working now. Either put in tons of troops and do something, or pull out. The current "plan" equates to nothing more than a lifetime of battle in Iraq.

Probably a very accurate statement. One of the reasons why I am still calling for a two term limit for any elected official. Then they get out of govt (no other elected position period for them) and get a real job.

We need to end this "good old boy" network on the hill on both sides.

Rick (Nathans) totally agree. Pulling out now is not the answer to any of the questions.

CC, so now its opening the door a bit? "Almost all are backstabbers" is I guess a slight improvement. Take responsibility in our careers? Hell, I just land the plane... :) My life is in Gods hands most of the time.

JoeA

Nope.

And no, your life is in your hands and the mechanic's hands....

I'm certainly not arguing that we "pull out now", and neither would any sane person. Knee-jerk politicians who are looking to get press will say that though...from both sides of the aisle (more heavily from the demo side though obviously).

But that doesn't mean we don't need a strategy. As far as a timetable, you have to have something in place, otherwise there will be no movement. No matter what the plan/timetable certain elements will continue to act against "good" (however you define it). That is the problem with this theater as well as Vietnam. There are no well defined victory conditions. "Stability" is a pretty loose term. Wiping out all the terrorists? Not reasonable or possible.

We had this issue in game-playing scenarios with security types. The "blue team" was always at a disadvantage as they had no clear parameters for what determined a "win." In order to devise a strategy you have to know what your goals are. And "stability" is not granular enough to form the basis of an exit strategy.

Except for the esteemed Democratic Senator from Pennsylvania (just to return the thread to its origins...)

re-read my post...either insane or looking for press. Most of these guys are simply media whores who will posture with an extreme position because its the only thing that gets noticed these days.

Although I'm convinced that far too many of these politicos are so out of touch with reality that they do believe what their confused minds tell them. They advisors are usually yes-men who are looking to just increase their connections so they'll say whatever it takes to get the brownie points. Perverse little system we have going...

Not opening the door a bit? Well, most of us do learn as we age, so possibly one day you will realize that your statement needs a bit of change.

Also, someday we might have a talk. It could just open your eyes a bit. If there were not a higher power, I would not be here today, along with a lot of the rest of us I assume. Has nothing to do with this thead so not needed to expound on it here.

Joe A

+1

Just curious, why would you not be here today? What intervention did God do that if He didn't do, you wouldn't be here?

Todd, you and I have ridden motorcycles in Cali, and splitting lanes there goes a long way towards making you realize that there is a God! :) At least your cylinders do not stick out in the way!

CC, not for discussion here. Its a personal thing. Sometime when we can sit down for a drink in person...

Joe

Nice to see you guys getting along :)

Back to Rick’s point:

“To immediately redeploy U.S. troops consistent with the safety of U.S. forces. .”

That’s what his website and speech say. It's reprinted in full in the very first post here. If you only skimmed it, please go back and spend a few minutes reading. Even in written form, it comes across as heartfelt and genuine. Maybe I'm a sap but that's my take. This guy, no matter what you think of his bill, is no political grandstander. He believes this.

I have not compared the language of the Murtha Resolution and the Repub "substitute," so I could be proven wrong, but the media reports I read is that Murtha's bill (yea technically a Joint Res, but effectively the same thing) called for a gradual draw down over the next six months. The Repub bill was an "immediate withdrawl," like tomorrow. And it didn't have the extra protection, also quoted in the first post:

To create a quick reaction force in the region.
To create an over- the- horizon presence of Marines.
To diplomatically pursue security and stability in Iraq

So it was a thinly disguised ploy. Again, I have not researched the actual language, but I’m pretty sure that’s the accurate score.

Rodeo,

Its the "immediate redeploy" part of the statement that stood out and IMHO part of the reason why everyone on one side of the fence got so riled up. Had it said "redeploy as fast as possible consistant with safety" then it would have been a lot less difficult to stomach.

Not totally getting along, I still cannot get CC to say that there is at least one Republican in the world who is not a backstabber. As long as anyone has this attitude about another group of people then we aint going to get along very well.

JoeA

WTF? Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say there is not one republican in the world who is not a back stabber!



Previous statement by me:

That's how I view your party. Sorry, but I do. I'm talking on politician level, they are nothing but a bunch of backstabbers.

Some of their party members are no better...not all....not even many...but some are....





And I since conceded there may be a handful of politicians at best who are not like this......

This was the quote:

I then asked if its possible that CC was opening the door that not all Repubs were backstabbers and her answer was:

[/B] Nope [/B]

Do not know how else to understand "nope" but I guess its possible... Please enlighten me when you can. My mistake that she did say "politicians" but I would as well hope that there is one somewhere in the world who might fit the bill.

Joe A

Forgive me...I didn't notice that you omitted the word politician. Why would I, I stated POLITICIAN like 4 times...why would after stating it like 4 times would I think you meant something else?

I think CC is trying to say what everyone knows: When it comes to hardball politics, nobody beats the Repubs. Nobody.

Draw a direct line from CREEP to Lee Atwater to Karl Rove. 40 years of slash and burn. Give them their due, they were successful. Remember Willie Horton? Of course you do. When these guys come after you, unless you have superhuman powers, you’re meat.

Dems have always been too cerebral, too inclusive and sensitive, to be very good at that sort of stuff.

The word politician or not in the mix, a statement like "all of any group in the country are backstabbers" is not accurate.

People are individual and any group of people cannot and will not be the same, just isnt going to happen, so when someone says something like that it cannot be accurate.

Republican politicians are not all backstabbers anymore than all Democratic politicans are drunken murderers like Teddy Kennedy. Aint gonna wash...

JoeA

What I mean is no republican POLITICIAN (happy Joe?) is allowed to offer an opinion that's different than the collective opinion, or they will be outcasted, lambasted, attacked and ruined. Powell, McCain, etc. Even Jack Ryan was told to pull out of the election because he's a swinger. They stab their own.

Hey, cool, what are your thoughts about Zell Miller?

And on a different note, have any of you people who are calling for an immediate withdrawal of troops bothered to see what the commanders in the field feel about when the troops should be pulled out?

Randy

Zell? What do you mean? I personally think he's a republican...he doesn't have one democratic belief....