Fint,

we both just wasted 60 seconds of our lives by responding to Clinton's post. He's a "hit and run" specialist. He posts his inflammatory schite and then runs. He won;t be back in this thread....not for a few days at least. and if/when he returns, he won't answer our questions.

(Weren't they talking about Trolls in another thread recently? :) )

Randy

What the heck...as pathetic as that was....it is no worse than the others. We have to find a better class of troll to respond to.

Quote:

And on a different note, have any of you people who are calling for an immediate withdrawal of troops bothered to see what the commanders in the field feel about when the troops should be pulled out?

Randy, this was your initial response. Is there a question?

well, actually, there was a question. I was initially going to ask where I attacked anyone, but after re-reading your post, I can see you didn't say that [b]I[/i] was doing the attacking. My mistake, sorry for the confusion.

But now, I really have to ask, just because the guy is a decorated combat veteran Marine, why should that mean I have to agree with him. I can respect someone for their service and still not agree with them on other topics.

Take you, for example, I respect the he!! out of your service. I even appreciate that you have a strong opinion on how this war and even this country is being run by our Administration. In no way does that mean I agree with you.

Randy

It seems that GW discussed just that today. Thank God we have a real leader in charge:

"In Washington, there are some who say that the sacrifice is too great, and they urge us to set a date for withdrawal before we have completed our mission," Bush said Saturday. "Those who are in the fight know better."

"So long as I am commander-in-chief, our strategy in Iraq will be driven by the sober judgment of our military commanders on the ground," he said, adding that U.S. troops are "making steady progress" in training Iraqi forces to defend their country.

That isn't what I said. I merely pointed out that the reality of the situation is that they will *not* have the final (or even pentultimate) say. And I don't know that they have for many, many years.

I'm not sure who's the best to make that decision. I think some of the field commanders do *not* have a grasp of the broader political ramifications. This isn't a knock on them...they are doing what they are trained to do. You can make the argument that generals should make decisions rather than statesmen, but I think we would likely get some mistakes no matter who makes the call. That is part of the problem here...no clear victory conditions. That kind of muddy water is not ideal for military minds. Great for pudding-headed politicians :p

I'd prefer to have someone making these decisons be someone who wasn't driven by the most recent poll.
(No, this wasn't a dig on Clinton, but rather a dig on politicians in general.)

Randy

isn't voting the ultimate "hit & run" ????

I watched Murtha on MTP this morning. The impression I got was that his visits to the military hospitals have made up his mind for him, seeing these young men and women in pieces makes it an emotional decision for him rather than a rational one. Russert would ask him about radical decay and civil war and global unrest that withdrawl may cause (then showed Murtha his own quotes against pulling out for these reasons 11 months earlier). Murtha was oblivious to the questions and just went back to his personal stories at the hospitals. He is incapable of rational discussion on the matter IMHO. I understand why, but it doesn't change that fact.

Are you trying to convince yourself of that or something?

I saw it too, and he continually stated that there is nothing productive being done there anymore.....we wore out our welcome, our soldiers are nothing more than targets.

Something's gotta change...either devote resources so we can handle it, or let the Iraqis stand by themselves.

He also said as long as we're there, the Iraqis will continue to stand back and let us do the fighting. When are they going to be ready? 5 years, 50 years, 100 years?

What was his reply to his quotes of earlier in the year?

Hereis a link to the interview if anyone wants to watch.

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/murthamtpnov2005.wmv

What difference does it make? He's right. We wore out our welcome. We when about it all wrong and now "the course" has become a dead-end situation. It sucks, but that's just how it is.

Edit: At work, when something isn't working right, don't you change course and adapt and do the best job possible as a result of constant analysis?

They have had two free elections and ratified an intial constitution this year! How you can say nothing is being accomplished is beyond me. Now, I agree our military did not do these things, but without our military presence they would not have happened. The next round of elections is in January, will that be an accomplishment?

Yes, their constitution is blessed by the likes of Iran.

If having an election is your only measure of success, then I am sad for our boys and girls and the people over there.

That place is a place where women don't leave their homes for fear of rape, they don't have the basic necessities, it's like N.O. every single day...... It's in turmoil.

Well Rick, I posted the Murtha Resolution and the Republican Resolution, and for some reason you persist in your original statement that the “Republicans nailed [Murtha] yesterday though...forced a vote on the very thing he was pushing for ..."

You're smart enough to see the difference between the Murtha Resolution and the one you characterize as the same thing.

The Murtha Resolution:

Section 1. The deployment of United States Forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is hereby terminated and forces involved are to be redeployed at the earliest practicable date.

Section 2. A quick-reaction U.S. force and an over-the-horizon presence of U.S. Marines shall be deployed in the region.

Section 3. The United States of America shall pursue security and stability in Iraq through diplomacy.

And the counterfeit Murtha Resolution:

Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.

Of course it's not the same thing. One says "at the earliest practicable date," the other says "immediately." One has a quick-reaction force, Marines in the region, and diplomatic direction. The other does not, instead resorting to "bigger font" to fill up the page.

It was a stunt, and an ugly one.

Quote:

I watched Murtha on MTP this morning. The impression I got was that his visits to the military hospitals have made up his mind for him, seeing these young men and women in pieces makes it an emotional decision for him rather than a rational one. Russert would ask him about radical decay and civil war and global unrest that withdrawl may cause (then showed Murtha his own quotes against pulling out for these reasons 11 months earlier). Murtha was oblivious to the questions and just went back to his personal stories at the hospitals. He is incapable of rational discussion on the matter IMHO.

I watched Murtha on MTP as well but have a different take on the core of his message.

Murtha commented on how the US spends more on intelligence than the entire world combined. That the intel he had at the time called for non-partisan support for an invasion. As far as WMD is concerned, well, bad intelligence.

I'm not about to get sucked into the political resolution of this illegal war. I support our troops, not just during times of conflict, but 20 years later when the politicians are enjoying their retirements and the vets are left to fend for themselves.

I agree with Murtha. We need to redeploy our troops to the peripheral and let Iraq defend herself.

Can I ask where you got that from? Just your general feeling based on your absorbing the daily media or a specific article report(s)?

Specific article reports. I saw something a couple months back with interviews of Iraqi women.

Did the Republicans put up the exact same resolution Murtha called for? No. Was there political maneuvering going on? Absolutely. Did the Democrats get caught with their hand in the political cookie jar? You betcha.

For once they were called on their continuous war bashing and they were found wanting. Politics is a game and the Republicans won the Murtha round. Heck, even on Meet the Press today they put up several graphics from people like Kerry and Reid who made statements saying they disagreed with Murtha's position. He was thrown up there to make an extreme speech and got burned on it.

Now doing the right thing is "caught in the cookie jar"

Gotta love the right.