Another Union Thread

[legion]

I had an interesting conversation over Thanksgiving. I spoke to a WWII vet (distant semi-relative--will probably never see him again) who had a union, factory job after the war until his retirement 20 years ago.

Like many people, he finds the dissolving of the U.S. industrial base disturbing. The cause, according to him, is student loans.

He feels that up until the advent of student loans, only the absolute best and brightest could get into college. In his words: "The "A" students went to college, the "B" and "C" students went to the factories, and the "D" and "F" students went to prison."

The factories were getting an intelligent and capable workforce.

After the federal student loans became widespread, the "A", "B", and "C" students went to college, and the "D" and "F" students went to work at the factories. He feels that quality and work ethic both dropped because the quality of workers in factories, and unions dropped.

I thought I'd share.

[IROC]

Interesting observation. He may have a point.

All of our union labor is currently on strike. Fun driving through picket lines every day. I saw one of them working at Target yesterday. I don't have alot of sympathy for them...

Mike

[RallyJon]

Not sure how much this is a union issue, rather an education issue.

I agree that a "college education" --for most people--is a symbol rather than actual preparation for life in the real world. As a society I think we put too much weight on credentials and not enough on actual learning.

It's foolish to think that you can take a lackadaisical 18 year old C student and cram him into four years at East Upper Middle of Nowehere College and somehow produce a productive member of society. Put those B and C students to work for two years at least, then offer them a range of training and education options that suit their needs. Just because there's less old-school manufacturing doesn't mean that a focused, vocational education is not appropriate for many people.

[notfarnow]

Interesting. I agree that Universities are just degree factories now, it's not a distinction to have a university degree.

Of my group of friends, those who went into the trades after high school are generally much more successful than those with university degrees. They also seem much happier, probably because most of them work independantly.

It's funny though, where I work most people would sneer at plumbers & electricians. My friends that are plumbers & electricians easily make more than them (and me), have more vacation and enjoy their work A LOT more.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by legion
After the federal student loans became widespread, the "A", "B", and "C" students went to college, and the "D" and "F" students went to work at the factories. He feels that quality and work ethic both dropped because the quality of workers in factories, and unions dropped.

Interesting theory, but it relies heavily on the assumption that uneducated people are lazy and would otherwise end up in jail.

[RallyJon]

the assumption that uneducated people are lazy

The result of getting Ds and Fs is that you are uneducated. The cause of getting Ds and Fs is that you are lazy.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by RallyJon
The result of getting Ds and Fs is that you are uneducated. The cause of getting Ds and Fs is that you are lazy.

Don't you know anyone who struggled through school, but is hard working & dedicated?

I have one friend in particular who is as dumb as a sack of stones, but the guy has never, ever been without work because he is reliable, sincere and very hard working. He BARELY made it through high school, and the fact that he did graduate (with a D average) was a great source of pride for him.

[widebody911]

Originally posted by RallyJon
The result of getting Ds and Fs is that you are uneducated. The cause of getting Ds and Fs is that you are lazy.

Or just dumb. Dumb does not always equate to lazy.

For example, I failed calculus. Twice. Not because I'm lazy per se, but because I really suck at math. Actually, I'd have to improve to suck. The father of the girl I was living with taught one of the classes I took, I spent a couple nights a week getting tutored, and I still failed.

[Superman]

I have to go but I'll check back on you guys. I'm not so sure unions or student loans are the cause, but everyone knows that our movement away from a manufacturing economy toward a "service" economy is a loser's strategy.

[yellowline]

I disagree with the original argument.

The cost of doing business is too high here. In addition to tax laws, we have environmental obligations, and people live longer. Pensions and health care adds up. 50 years ago, a company paid health care and pension for perhaps 10-15 years. Life expectancy and the price of healthcare has gone up. The retirement age hasn't moved with life expectancies.

The automakers are a prime example. How can you justify running underproducing factories, all the while subsidizing workers with $27/hour, full health care and a pension? It's a great wage, perhaps in line with factory workers in the postwar years. But the companies need the money to do it, and with the consumer haggling and complaining over every little price increase, the money isn't coming in. This is from the CEOs eyes. I don't support moving our industry overseas, from national security and economic standpoints.

When you have a viable alternative to all this (China), companies are going to move there. We all know this. I'm not pretending to give a lecture, just reiterating something from my admittedly limited viewpoint. It's sad but true.

As far as "A" students, I don't think it's a prerequisite for college. I've spoken in private with well-respected members of the board who I look up to. They classified themselves as average students. Whether "average" is in comparison to Mensa candidates, I don't know, but I've seen it comes down to work ethic, not just natural ability.

[RallyJon]

Don't you know anyone who struggled through school, but is hard working & dedicated?

Yes. He ended up going to trade school. He's a plumber and doing very well.

My point is that it makes no sense to keep a guy like that in the classroom. He was a distracted, lazy student, skipping class and getting those poor grades. When he found his niche (actually, his observant father found it for him) he did very well.

[notfarnow]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Yes. He ended up going to trade school. He's a plumber and doing very well.

My point is that it makes no sense to keep a guy like that in the classroom. He was a distracted, lazy student, skipping class and getting those poor grades. When he found his niche (actually, his observant father found it for him) he did very well.

I think we're almost seeing eye to eye. While I'm sure there are people who get crappy grades because of lazyness (like your friend) there are others who just aren't cut out for academics. That friend of mine I was talking about earlier worked a lot harder for his D than I did for my B.

[Rick V]

I find that the modern day union is nothing more than a means for people to live the give-me lifestyle. When unions were formed it was the only way to recieve a fair wage and to increase safty in the work force. Todays unions are nothing more than a way to make products overpriced.
The person who works for GM installing lugnuts makes 60-80k a year with benifits. I'm sorry but I concider this to be unskilled entry level labor. And the price of the vehicles reflects the waste of money going into unskilled workers.
The Food lion stores in my neck of the woods will only hire union baggers and clerks, Once again IMO unskilled entry level positions for highschool kids.
I work as a wrench and when I started I made less money than I did when I worked as a plumber. I took the hit and looked at the big picture now many years later I make more money than alot of my friends who went to college (I dropped out for finacial reasons).
I do get alot of people who look down thier nose at me because I "work on cars" but guess what most of those people need me more than I need them. I guess what I'm trying to get at is you have to put in the time and look at the end game. Unions and useless degrees are just a way to shortcut the big picture. In the end it all comes out in the wash.
End rant

[Joe Bob]

Rich "C" student goes to Ivy League school and becomes President, film at 11.

[Superman]

Originally posted by yellowline
The cost of doing business is too high here.......with $27/hour, full health care and a pension. It's a great wage, perhaps in line with factory workers in the postwar years........

I've butchered Yellowline's quote a little just wanted to capture the essence. I would point out that these obscene, ridiculous, unwarranted, extortion wages and benefits that unions have gone to bat to preserve.......are in fact NOT equivalent to postwar earnings. In those days, a breadwinner could raise a family of children with the help of his stay-at-home wife, they could take vacations and have two cars. The kids could be in sports and whatever activities. Television sets and kitchen gadgets galore. They might even send kids off to college. The entire middle class was set up this way.

Who, besides consulting actuaries, can afford this today?

Now try and tell me that unions have destroyed America by raising wages? Hogwash!

[RallyJon]

So, Superman, wages should be set to guarantee a certain OUTCOME? That a union is justified in pumping up wages to maintain some sort of outdated Beaver Cleaver standard of living?

Who, besides consulting actuaries, can afford this today?

Precisely! All workers are affected--why should union members be exempt?

The issue isn't standard of living, it's that the unions apply pressure artificially shifting resources (supposedly) for the benefit of their members.

But--as always with union discussions--this is all semantics and theory. The corruption throughout the unions twists the present manifestation of any possible good that they did in the past.

[Joe Bob]

Ah bullcrap...when union wages go up....so do non-represented wages....

[Nathans_Dad]

The problem, IMHO, is that our society has somehow devalued the trade occupations. I will tell you right now that I personally have more respect for a guy who can take apart a car (especially a Porsche) and put it back together again than I do for a mid-level executive who pushes paper all day.

Germany has it right, their students take a mandatory aptitude test after their primary schooling (somewhere equivalent to 9th grade I think). Based on that test they either go to Gymnasium (high school and college all rolled up) or to a trade school based on their aptitudes and interests.

We need to recognize and support our trade professions and allow those students who show talent in these areas to explore those options instead of trying to funnel everyone into a 4 year college program.

[Rick V]

When union wages go up the only other wages that increase are the people aligned with them. When the trash, auto, food lion baggers get an increase that doesn't do a thing for me except to make my buck worth less. The more money floating around the less it is worth. My wife and I have busted our humps to get where we are today and it just burns my shorts to see people getting a better deal with out putting in the time and recorses to do it themselves! Sink or swim, the thinning of the herd,etc. If it isn't earned it shouldn't be handed out unless it is accross the board. If the unions were in the business of helping it's members, truly, the people n charge would hold the posts for free.
JMO I hate having to suport handouts.

[yellowline]

Originally posted by Superman

Now try and tell me that unions have destroyed America by raising wages? Hogwash!

Never was my argument. I mentioned that with tax burdens, the EPA, OSHA, and other bodies which companies need to comply with (and all the extra $ involved). Then I asked how companies can afford union wages on top of that. The union wages, while in themselves not necessarily bad, are the straw that breaks the camel's back and drives companies to manufacture elsewhere. That was my point.

In those days, a breadwinner could raise a family of children with the help of his stay-at-home wife, they could take vacations and have two cars. The kids could be in sports and whatever activities. Television sets and kitchen gadgets galore. They might even send kids off to college. The entire middle class was set up this way.

Though I'm not a child of the 50's, I'm willing to try and examine this more closely. First, what kinds of cars did most people have? Maybe Pontiacs or Oldsmobiles or Mercuries, right? No middle-class people tried to buy a Cadillac right off the bat...it was something to work for. Why do some buy BMWs and Hummers at a relatively young age today?

Next, where did people vacation? They didn't take expensive trips to resorts, I don't think. I have the picture that the car was loaded up and driven somewhere, with everyone staying at motels along the way.

I'd think there were fewer gadgets then than there are now. We have Xboxes, computers, cell phones, and all the monthly bills that go with them. TV was free then, and my parents tell me a TV set wasn't disposable.

Look at all our monthly bills and services. Cell phone, OnStar, caller ID, cable Internet, etc. The 50s never had that. They had basic land phone, possibly a water bill, electricity, heat, mortgage, and maybe car payments. With fewer services chipping away at monthly income, they do look wealthier. I bet a lot of people could replicate that financial standing that came with the 50s...if we gave up $50 a month cable and $1500/month mortgages on McMansions.

I'd really like to see an average income of today and of 50 years ago broken down. Without all the extra toys and associated debt, I'd bet we actually have the potential to duplicate the 50s, for the most part.