So how many of those executed were later shown to be innocent, I wonder. Does it matter to their leader?

Seems ripe for getting rid of business/political rivals. Just plant some at their home.

In all the time I was there, I never heard even a rumor or protest. Fact is, there was never any grey.

Govt. Corruption is also dealt with rather severely there. Problem with framing with drugs is that you have to get the drugs first and that is a risk most will not take. As mentioned most criminals charged with trafficking there are foreigners that are caught red handed.

alf

As a card-carrying right-wing redneck Christian conservative, I have always thought drugs of all kinds should be....... legal. What government has the right to dictate what its citizens ingest for pleasure? The death penalty for possesion is overly harsh even if you believe drugs should remain illegal.

That said, why on Earth would anyone even mess with it there? I don't know much about how this stuff flows through that area of the world either geographically or economically. Is there some advantage that makes it worth the risk to go through Singapore? Aren't most of its neighbors far more lax, and not that far out of the way? I don't get it.

All that said, there IS a seedy underbelly there in Singapore, as in all of the world, but particularly in Asia. I'm sure there are places where drugs could be had, but certainly not openly by any means.

There are things openly done in Singapore that are not done anymore in any other place in the modern civilized world. On an island 17 by 24 miles long. With 8 million people on it.

-Children playing unmonitored in the front yard.

-Home doors unlocked at all times.

-Adolescents 'roaming' the streets at night WITHOUT getting into ANY kind of trouble.

-Gangs of kids entering a business, and the tension level remaining unchanged, no fear of impending crime.

-Asking for the resident computer genius to help solve a problem in a store and being introduced to the owners' 12 year old daughter.

-Leaving your $1200. mountain bike unlocked at the entrance of your unlocked apartment door, and having it still be there in the morning.

-Driving down (the British side of) the street and not being run over by a woman talking on a cell phone; it's illegal there (has been since '94) and there are severe penalties $$$$ for doing so.

-No traditional homework for the kids. Every child is given a laptop in elementary school, and they download their assignments and homework electronically.

It was the most impressive display of civilization I have ever seen. Would I be willing to trade some civil liberties to not have to deal with the crime? To NEVER see a handgun again?


Yes.

Alf: Wow. Thanks.
Jeff: We are pulling your card.
Sing: Get Ron on board and lets go in the Big Town.

Ofcourse not. And as you have lived there, you know well why.

VAN Tuong Nguyen was hanged about three hours ago.

Like the right to free speech, a free press, the right to assembly, the right to dissent, the right, in fact, to a political opposition, to transparency in Govt?

Interesting.

No Stuart. Please do not put your words or ideals into my mouth.

Common sense prevailed. Free speech, free press, right to assembly, right to dissent none of those rights are affected in any way. What you have is a people who threw off a repressive political regime, and declared independence; designed a system that values soceity as a whole above individual perequisites.

If you'd ever been there, you'd see the difference.

BTW, every Friday, several convicted criminals swing there. I'm glad to see the world rid of them. Wish we could get rid of a few here.

I'll mail out my number 2x


And for entertainment
I'm doing a 10 day tour in Kenya. Sometimes you're traveling with other busses and sometimes you're not. We drove around a large part of the country hitting 4 magnificent old British outposts.

I'm reading a local paper somewhere on the ride and this native is wanted dead by the 100-200 people tribe/community.. as per all of them surrounding his house and attempting to burn it down with him in it a few days ago. They tried to keep him inside before the PD arrived and took him off to jail.

The native comes up with a good, respected, and I guess expensive for their standards lawyer. The lawyer states a logical textbook case in his defense. Then the Judge charges the lawyer with some made up on the spot offense & 6 months in jail with No Visitors. The lawyer is dragged away. I guess the Judge wanted this guy burnt also. So now there is no way the defendant can get another lawyer and his case will be decided next week.

I kept that paper.

I do not think that having civil liberties and strict drug laws have to be mutually exclusive.

I know Singapore very well, and have spent a great deal of time there.

Singapore is Lee, Inc. It is social engineering on a grand scale. There is no effective political opposition. There is no free press, the media is govt owned wth no charter of independance. Singapore can most kindly be described as a benevolent dictatorship. IMHO.

HR Report from your State Dept:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27788.htm

Doesn't sound so great to me. From the State Department:

"The Government continued to rely on preventive detention to deal with espionage, terrorism, organized crime, and narcotics. The authorities sometimes infringed on citizens' privacy rights. The Government continued to restrict significantly freedom of speech and freedom of the press, as well as to limit other civil and political rights. Government pressure to conform resulted in the practice of self-censorship among journalists. Government leaders continued to utilize court proceedings and defamation suits against political opponents and critics. These suits, which have consistently been decided in favor of government plaintiffs, chilled political speech and action and created a perception that the ruling party used the judicial system for political purposes."

yeah, sorry Michael but I have to disagree. The woman I'm dating now grew up in Singapore and her parents live there much of the year (they also have a house in Carlsbad). We also have a postdoc in our research cohort this year who is from Indonesia and has done a lot of research in cyberactivism and other social topics in southeast asia. Singapore is one of the most tightly controlled societies in the world. You cannot pick and choose parts of their policies and expect them to work here.

Didn't some one once say (Churchil?) "Those who would sacrifice a measure of their liberty to gain a measure of safety deserve neither"? Or something like that...

Dosen't every society do that when we codify a set of laws?

Lived in Singapore two years (93 and 94), at that time the mandatory death penalty was for more than 2 grams of any controlled substance.

You don't have to like it or not; those are the rules and their law (btw. Indonesia follows the same rules even than not so strictly inforced) as singpilot says every week for the two years I was there someone was hang for that reason. I was there when the US kid got flogged for vandalizing a car.

If you have not been there (in the region in general) you cannot comprehend that island/country/state. It is run as a business (which it is). Being able to bring together the five major ethnics groups of the region without any 'social' issues is just plain amazing. Do some internet search and find out how much a married Singaporean couple are worth it and compare that to any other country in the world. Of course if you don;t like how the Board of Directors (aka goverment aka Lee Inc.) run the company you always have the choice to move out of the country.

BTW. my apartment got robed once (some electronics, watch and cameras). Police was very swift, perps where caught within 8 hours or so.

Jordi, what happened to the goons who robbed your apt.? Inquiring minds want to know.

Don't know (and probably don't want to know).

They where 'well known' perps linked to some drug and prostitution ring. All my items where recovered except a first edition Tag Heuer watch (damm I miss that watch).

I wish we had a serious criminal justice system, but it'll never happen, so I don't lose sleep over it.