What country do you live in?
Haven't seen much of this activity up north - in Canada. Freedom of religion is a basic right.

Seems in the US it is becoming Freedom FROM Religion...

Imagine living in Pakistan. Ignore for the moment that Americans can't walk down the street there. You would have the Islam religion all around you. As a Christian, how would you like that? You would see it in the stores, on TV, and you would have to stop working during those times of prayer, when they face Mecca and touch their forehead to the ground. You would have pressure to convert to Islam. In short, you'd have it shoved down your throat.

That's the way a non-christian feels in America right now. We see Christianity on our money, the pledge of allegiance, on government buildings, in the school room, on TV, on the news, during the holidays, etc. We get pressured to convert.

Why should a non-christian get it shoved down their throats like this? Getting religion shoved down my throat is a form of religions persecution, is it not? And isn't that what it is all about? Freedom from religions persecution? Isn't that why they got on the boats to come over to America in the first place? They were being persecuted?

Yup; and from a position of ignorance to boot. All they know about the Bible or Christianity is what some one else has told them, or what they have read or heard from sources other than the Bible.

I have challenged any number of Christianity-bashers to do one simple thing: read the Bible. See what it says for themselves. The vast majority decline the challenge, offering a truly imaginative litany of excuses for avoiding doing so.

I think it boils down to most would be embarassed to be seen with one in their circle of friends and family. To admit having read it would lower their stock in the intellectual circles they inhabit. Our "open-minded" friends are anything but on at least one topic.

First of all, comparing Christians in Pakistan or other fundamentalist nations to your "plight" in the US is disingenuous at best and idiotic at worst. Last I checked you didn't get put to death in the US for saying your don't believe in God, so it might be better if you picked a different analogy.

I also find it very difficult to understand how liberals can oppose the war in Iraq. The war, at this point anyway, is about whether Iraq will become a democratic country with infinitely more freedom than it was under Saddam or what it will be if we pull out and allow it to return to a fundamentalist Theocracy. Isn't giving people the right to determine their lives, live as they please, allowing freedom of speech and the press, and moving AWAY from religious fundamentalism Liberalism at its finest? In my mind, we ARE the leftists in Iraq...yet the left in THIS country is dead set on allowing that country to return to a far right society where free thought is punished. Aren't the liberals selling out their own ideals and in fact selling out millions of Iraqi souls just to gain a political buck?

Another excellent post, kang. This is the one point that no Christian can relate to. We are bombarded with Christianity at every turn. Christians forget that it is they who hold the massive majority in this country. Every one else is the outsider. I've often wondered how I would feel (as an atheist) walking into a courtroom to be judged by a jury of my "peers" when the courtoom has plaques of the Ten Commandments mounted on the wall and the jury is made up of Christians who revile an atheist as "evil".

Christians often perceive themselves as persecuted, but I strongly feel that this persecution is imagined and even created by Christians to promote an atmosphere of the struggling underdog.

I totally understand that the vast majority of this country believes in the Christian god and I realize that I am the outsider for not sharing this belief, but as such it can be difficult.

Mike

Interesting that you can make such a sweeping set of assumptions. Your proposition boils down to -Christian bashers (your term) are such because they are ignorant of Christianity. Ergo, if they were not ignorant of Christianity, they would embrace its doctrine.

You Crusader, you.

Do you acknowledge that it is possible that there exist people who understand Christianity and reject it?

An excellent question. The world still needs idealism.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

We don't stone or fine you for your beliefs. Nor would a true Christian ever want to. That's religious persecution. Nuff said. :rolleyes:

The Puritans also came here to live their lives in peace, indeed. They also wrote strict laws into the books. Until about 1830 (1833, I believe), Massachusetts taxpayers subsidized the Congregational church in Mass., whether or not you belonged to it. There was a state church in some states from the beginning of the nation.

Please forgive my ignorance. I am but a seeker of enlightenment, a journeyman.

The big picture stuff. Lets not quibble over verses of this or that.

Theres is God. The Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. Timeless, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. God creates the world and then, in his likeness, man, for the sole purpose of worshipping Him. God loves man unconditionally. So much so that He offers man a choice to worship Him and love Him, or not- even though, being God, He already knows what any particluar man will choose. He knows the very number of hairs on our heads after all. If a man chooses to reject God, God will consign that man to burn in the pit of Hell for all eternity, presumably out of His unconditional love for that man. If man chooses to love and worship God, he will live with God in Heaven, praising Him for all eternity. Ive always been confused about why an omnipotent being needs a bunch of man to worship Him for all Eternity, but I suppose dogs dont have soul so they cant go to Heaven.

Now it is already written in the Book of Life who gets in and who goes to Hell, so some of us are already hoplessly damned. Or alternately, if that is not the case, and we can ask for Salvation- God doesnt know yet how many house guests He will have for all Eternity. Which sort of dents the omniscient God idea, or the notion of choice. Which is it? Is God omniscient or do we have a choice?

Anyway, for reasons still unclear to me (but who can know the mind of God?), God sends His Son, Jesus, to earth to be executed. In being crucified, Jesus wipes away all our sins, allowing us to go to Heaven (to worship God for all eternity) as long as we accept that JC was the Son of God, and that his death was atonement for our sins. We can still sin, but we must ask Jesus for forgiveness of these sins so that we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven so as to worship God for all eternity. I dont understand how the death of an immortal God entity makes atonement for our sins several centuries later, or even then- especially when He didnt really die. Got up and walked out three days later, after all.

So lets not quibble about the silly ideas in the Old Testament Bible like Creationsim, Noah and Burning Bush. You are correct, these nonsenses diminish the overall message- and its not like those sillly ideas get taught in schools or anything or anyone takes them seriously. Lets get into the serious stuff- virgin birth, rising from the dead, atonement for sins and forgiveness, everlasting life and ofcourse, the Rapture.

Oh boy oh boy, a real, live theological debate!! There are a few points about your argument that I think are flawed though. Here we go...please note I use the term "man" generically, meaning all people (don't wanna tick off CC).

Hopefully I have answered some of your questions. I'm certainly not a Biblical scholar...just another guy trying to find my way.

Merry Christmas.

That's an interesting point and one that makes me think from time to time. My brother is a born again christian, fairly high up in the pecking order in the largest group in Australia (think they are called "Hillsong" or something, you know - the ones that hold the massive youth get togethers in stadiums etc.) Anyhow, they reckon Jesus/god talks to them and tells them what to do on a regular basis.

Now, I reckon that would be fine if god chose to speak to man if the topic was worth while. Say issues like world peace, 3rd world starvation, the sitcho in the Middle East and so on. But they reckon he speaks to them and gives advice on comparatively trivial things like choosing between an AMG E55 or a BMW M3, business/career, personal wealth building etc. I think he once said he asked Jesus whether to spend $14,000 on an antique front door off a French mansion for his beach house. He must have said "yes my son" because it was installed last week.

Anyhow - I guess god is talking but from personal experience, evidently to the wrong people about the wrong things.

You seem to know a lot about what God does or want, or does or does do. Which is a problem I find with most people who subscribe to these beliefs.

In relation to communing with God. We get as far as Exodus then this:

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image."
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Yep, thats communing.

On the subject of God's omnipotence- which is it? Does God already know who will join in the Kingdom of Heaven, or do we have a choice? Or to go to the famous metaphysical paradox- can god create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? Why would god create something He loves (man) only to damn them to the fires of hell? What did Aquinas say?

I beleive you have me in regard to the Book of Life. Clearly I am wrong and I am happy to accept it did not exist till after the Ressurection. However this is a problem should you beleive there was no ressurection.


Now here is a proposition for you. Cast off these encumberances, these spiritual shackes, my son. Shed your prejuduces, your preconceptions, your guilt, your false hopes of eternal life. There is no deity. There is no god. Accept this, and your mortality, and you shall be be truly, finally free.


Merry Christmas to you too.

SmileWavy

You know, Stu, for a guy who doesn't believe any of it, you have a remarkable grasp on some of the hardest philosophies of Christian faith. Good work! :)

So the question ... If I'm sitting around in the upper room with 10 other guys who have wasted the last couple of years with some hippie floating around Gallilee healing the lame and raising a few dead here and there, it makes sense for us to come up with a grand ol' tale to tell our folks, so we don't get in too much trouble when we go back to our jobs fishing and collecting taxes and murdering tax collectors* and what-not. But why, pray tell, would we make up such nonsense? If I was going to make up a story, I'd make it simple. To be saved, you have to do good things, for example -- that'd be a much better story to make up, there in the upper room. An even better story would have been that you have to give me money, and lots of it, and I'll ensure you get to heaven. Why didn't the remaining disciples make up _that_ story, for crying out loud? They could have lived out happy lives as religious celebrities, with all the wine, women, and song they wanted. Instead, they produce this nonsense about how Jesus was God and rose from the dead, and every single one of them** ended up dying for it. Now, it's an idiot who makes up a nonsense story, but worse is the idiot who dies for the silly story, knowing that he made it up.

But, yeah, you've got a great handle on the fundamentals. See, Stu, you're basically a theist, you just believe in one fewer god than I do. ;)

Dan



*(I didn't make that part up, I wish I could. Matthew was a tax collector, and as such, a sellout to the Romans against his own people. Simon aka The Zealot belonged to an organization known as (wait for it) The Zealots, a group of people known for hunting people who had sold the Jews out to the Romans. Tax collectors were high on their list. I can't imagine why Jesus picked these two guys -- they must have had the most fascinating conversations....)

**(sans John, who was exiled to Patmos, where he died slowly, after apparently consuming too many mushrooms...)

:D :D :D :D :D
The Grail love it!!

And Now For Something Completely Different......................

Gee, Shadowfax, it all sounds so... silly when you put it like that. But you and I have been down this road before, no?

Fact is, I agree with Rick, in one sense. You cant/shouldnt reject something from a position of ignorance. And I do not, in this case. I may even be nearly as well informed as you. But lets be clear- Im not simply Christian bashing. I am an equal opportunity radical atheist I'd equally bash a Muslim or a Jew or a Jedi were they to post similar ridiculous topics on this board. Actually, I suspect there are more Jedis here than anything else.

Youve not got far to go, now, Shadowfax. You are nearly there. Dont deny your intellect, embrace it.

And while you are embracing your intellect, stop ripping off (and misquoting) Stephen Roberts :rolleyes:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Stuart, I commend you on your knowledge of scripture, but I think you twist it to serve your purposes. I was pointing out the flaw in your argument that God did not create man solely to worship him. I would agree that God can also be a wrathful God, see Soddom and Gomorrah (not sure if I spelled that right).

Again, predestination is one of the highly debated topics in religion. Even Paul (I think it was) debated predestination himself:

Romans XI: 18-21
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say, why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay, but who art thou, O man, that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed Say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?"

The best I can say is that you cannot take the argument to either extreme. Either you say God has all control (your position) and man has no choice or you say God has no control and man is floating freely. You artfully take the argument to both extremes in your posts and I commend you for that. But I think that as most arguments break down once you take them to extremes, this one does as well. The truth (to me) is somewhere in the middle.

I find it interesting that in a world where we hear talk of things like String Theory and its 10 dimensions you choose to talk about God as A + B = C. Surely if there are 10 dimensions postulated from String Theory God would be able to move in all 10, thus making it very difficult for our puny brains to get around his true ways. I admit you bring a good argument and applying simple logic to this has puzzled people for centuries.

And if I came across as somehow thinking that I KNOW what God does or does not want, that is an incorrect picture. I simply posted what I think from reading scripture. No one can portend to KNOW what God wants or doesn't want...they can only tell what their faith leads them to believe.

I'll second that. I've met any number of folks over the years that have explored the scriptures just enough to get ammunition for their pre-conceived notions about it. Far from reading them with an open mind, they attack them with zeal, looking for "flaws" that they just "know" are there. They assign the worst possible interpretation to what they read, and present them to others in the worst possible light, using their "research" to support their position. They will present their "expertise" to others, never being honest enough to admit the only reason they looked at them in the first place was to find supporting passages for their already determined position. Stuart's characterization of Paul, clearly not made from a position of ignorance, seems rather to be a great example of this approach.

Jeff, I understand this point very well as I have been guilty of this in the past. You seem to imply however that if one would merely read the book with an open mind, they would understand the message.

What about, though, the people who have rejected Christianity after spending their lives devoted to it? I mean the priests, ministers, born-again evangelists, etc. These people obviously have done exactly as you suggest (and then some), but find they can no longer believe. If the message is so compelling, why do they turn their backs on Christianity? This decision would have to be an especially difficult decision if you are a minister, priest, etc. as you would have much to lose.

A very interesting phenomenon can be observed relative to "conversions". There are many cases (the internet is chocked full of them) of extremely pious people who are now agnostics and atheists. There is very little traffic in the other direction. Very rarely does a professed skeptical atheist or agnostic change their mind and embrace Christianity.

Rhetorical question for the most part, but I've always wondered why the devout turn away from Christianity if it is so obviously correct and why people who have rejected it rarely ever change their minds.

Mike

Any data to support this statement besides "The internet is chock full of them"?