Well, I could start posting links, but a google search would probably serve you better. FWIW, you can read hundreds (?) of "deconversion" stories here:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8361.htm

Also, check out:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html

for a substantial discussion of this subject.

If my assumption is wrong I'd really enjoy seeing information to the contrary.

Mike

I see dialogue, not silencing or persecuting. In fact, I see intelligent dialogue from both sides, which is a welcome relief. Perhaps you perceive the questioning of your belief as persecution?

No one responded to a post I made earlier, so I’ll repost it here. It seems to be a more rational and logical explanation of religion than one that requires belief in gods, virgin births, etc. It follows the “KISS” principle, while religion does not.

Mike, I must admit to being a perfect example of what you are describing. I was raised a very devout Catholic and walked away from the whole thing in my late teens to early twenties. I just didn't buy it anymore. My wife was raised a devout Lutheran, but had similarly pretty much chucked off the whole thing by the time we met. She joined me, or more like probably led the way, in our mutual re-acceptance of Christianity. I still have my doubts, and my faith has high and low points for sure. I've even just about walked away from the whole thing again on several occasions. Something keeps drawing me back, though.

I have known a couple of pastors that have "fallen away". Neither of them from Christianity, but rather from the organized church. There's a big difference. While I'm sure there are "legitimate" cases of athiests that were once Christians, I get the impression that the most vocal and prominant ones are merely padding their resumes. They gain credibility among their peers by claiming to have once believed.

I know full well that not everyone that reads it will accept it. Everyone has been given free will to do as they chose in this regard. I have no problem at all with anyone that has read and understood it and rejects it anyway; that's between them and God. I have a great deal of trouble with those that have never read it, or have only read enough of it to support their pre-conceived ideas, yet espouse their expertise on it. I also have a great deal of trouble with those that have read and understood it, but offer up an intentionally deceptive or dishonest take on it to push their own agenda.

Sorry, I wasn't aware I was referring to you or anyone else on this BBS...just posting an observation in the society as a whole. And I certainly don't see someone questioning my beliefs as persecution, I think you were the one likening seeing "In God We Trust" on your money to being beaten or killed for your beliefs in Pakistan...

IROC, I have to say posting links to atheist websites that have stories of deconversion isn't exactly data...but I did enjoy the links. Here are a few for your perusal as well:

"Famous Atheist Now Believes in God"
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976

"FROM SOUTHERN BAPTIST TO AGNOSTIC, TO ATHEIST, TO CATHOLIC "
http://www.chnetwork.org/jd2conv.htm

"Agnostic to Priest,by Fr. Ed Fride"
http://www.chnetwork.org/efconv.htm

"Real conversion experience for reality TV atheist "
http://www.cathnews.com/news/505/24.php

Guess my point here is that having some stories available on the internet does not constitute some sort of sociological change, despite what an athiest site may say. I would be interested in a scientific study which shows that Christians deconvert to atheism more than the other way around...

BTW, it sounds like that Antony Flew conversion was a big deal...guess he was like the Pat Robertson of atheists or something. I don't know much about atheist culture but several sites say he was a "leading champion" of atheism.

This is amost arrogant, ignorant and disrespectful argument.

First, you can have no idea how I or (very likely) anyone here came to a particular set of views.

Second, you attack any use of scripture that does not further the cause-We're using the same base document. Is it God's word or not, Jeff?

Third, I'd apply the same standards to the Qoran or the Torah. And i bet you would be happy for me to do that.

Fourth, use of words in quotes to denigrate their meaning really is a Southern Baptist tract approach. Read one the other day about the evils of rock "music"- your post employs the same low brow red neck approach.

Now surely a good Christian be secure enough in his faith to treat the questioning of that faith as opportunity to teach? What would Jesus do?

Thanks for the links. I will read those, for sure.

BTW, Flew didn't convert to Christianity, so I don't think he can be used a good example in this case.

Mike

Ofcourse. The Church has been doing it for centuries. Which is why we get polictally correct bible versus for today (For God so loved ythe world that He gave his only begotten Son....." and not the snorters they were using a couple of hundred years ago to, say, justify slavery:

If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. Ex.21:2-6

Just see it for the interesting read it is.

JH: You are making a good point here. Many folks are nominally raised Christian, but dont really get it. And when they fall away completely, they paint themselves as an "ex".

Rick - you chastise me for posting info from atheistis websites and then respond with posts from...Christian websites! Pot...meet kettle. :>)

Mike

Struck a nerve, eh Stuart? A bit too close to home?

And yes, thank you very much, I am very much a "low brow redneck" (I've even been known to fart in church...); ask anyone that knows me. How very nice of you to notice. :D

I don’t see how you thought I was comparing seeing “In God We Trust” to getting beaten or killed. I specifically ruled that out when I said “Ignore for the moment that Americans can’t walk down the street there.” I was comparing me, a non-Christian, seeing Christianity on TV, the news, the music (I was in a store last night and heard a Jesus related Christmas song), to a Christian in Pakistan, seeing Islam on the TV, in the news, in the music, etc, etc. I thought I made that clear. Here is my quote:

Where do I mention getting beaten or killed? And no one answered the question. How would you, as a Christian, feel about having Islam in your face all the time? I’m not asking how you would feel if you were beaten or killed, just if you had the same exposure to Islam that we non-Christians have to Christianity. Imagine seeing “In Allah we Trust” on the money or in the courthouses or government buildings you were required to go to. How about pledging “one nation under Allah?” How about hearing Islamish (is that a word?) music when you’re shopping? How about having your children learn their story of creation in school (I think it is the same story as Christianity, but imagine it’s a different story for the sake of argument)? Etc, etc. That’s what I’m talking about.

Uh, that was my point Mike...that you can find examples of all sorts of things on the internet. I bet you could find a site for people that SWEAR they can telepathically communicate with their pets within 30 seconds with a Google search.

Please re-read my post where I say "Guess my point here is that having some stories available on the internet does not constitute some sort of sociological change, despite what an athiest site may say. I would be interested in a scientific study which shows that Christians deconvert to atheism more than the other way around..."

Reading...meet comprehension...


:p

Well Kang, since you asked, I in fact spent 4 months in an Islamic nation, listening to their calls for prayer, reading their newspapers, eating their food, etc. And you know what? I never once considered how it "made me feel". I just didn't find myself feeling somehow oppressed because they were practicing their beliefs. Oppression to me would be if we came down to sunny So Cal (or whereever it is you live), tied you up and dumped you in the front row of a church, forcing you to listen to sermons. I don't see how someone broadcasting a Christmas song that mentions Jesus **GASP** (it is why the Holiday is there in the first place) or seeing a nativity scene in a front yard "oppression" or having something "shoved down your throat".

Unless I misundertand you, you seem to be one of the folks who practice the "tyranny of the minority" (as I like to call it). You think that if anything is against one person's beliefs then that thing should be outlawed. Of course this only applies to those causes YOU find oppressive. How about if the Mennonites began to call for women to dress in full length dresses again because they were having secularism "shoved down their throat"? Would you also support that? There are countless examples of this that would border on ridiculous.

Our nation was founded by people who believed in God and having God on our currency or in our pledge is a testimony to that. And, though it may pain you to hear this, a strong majority of Americans still believe in the Christian God. It seems that since efforts to remove God from our country have failed at the polls, those who seek to do this have decided to take it to the court and abuse the separation of church and state. Thus we get silly lawsuits that seek to remove Under God from the pledge or In God We Trust from our money or tear down a hundred year old civil war monument because it has a cross in it.

So, except for hearing "Away in a Manger" once or twice a year or seeing a cross in a cemetary now and again, how exactly is Christianity being "shoved down your throat"?

Oh, and can you explain why you are FOR censorship of religion but AGAINST it in every other arena?

I have read this thread with great interest, given the deep crisis of faith I find myself in. First, a word about me. I am a life long practicing Catholic. My greatest role model in life is a Msgr. who I still respect as much as any man I've ever known. I considered a life in the church as a young man.

I am on the verge of turning my back on organized religion. So much of the doctrine I grew up believing to be infallible I now find to be either irreconcilable with my understanding of a loving God, embarrassing to be associated with, or both. Honestly, when I hear or read a Christian in this country having the nerve to refer to themselves as "persecuted" in a country where the overwhelming majority of the population shares their faith, and where every single president since the birth of our country has been a Christian, I just want to scream. If a person disagrees with your perspective on things, or would prefer that you not try to institutionalize your particular beliefs, that does NOT equal persecution.

I have read some things here that have given me pause for thought, but mostly, it is the same old stuff that doesn't hold up very well to skeptical exam.

Its simply a non argument Jeff. Have your faith, by all means, but to presume any one who questions your beliefs is "dishonest" is just a feeble stance. As I say, you have no knowledge of the circumstances that have lead to my or anyones here particular POV. And frankly, how you can defend a belief in great in a Great Pumpkin on the basis of you do is an intellectual non sequiteur.

Fart away.

Aircooledboy, I appreciate your post and would point out that there is a vast difference between Christianity and organized religion. And I stand by my assertion that the left in this country has waged a systematic campaign over the last few decades to remove all traces of God from our society.

There you go, putting words in my mouth again. Just like I never mentioned being beaten or killed, I never used the word oppression. I used the words “shoved down my throat.” In hindsight, that is a little harsh. I should have used the words “in my face.” That’s a better way to put it.

Not only are you putting words in my mouth, you are putting thoughts in my head. You say “You think that if anything is against one person's beliefs then that thing should be outlawed.” No, I do not think that. Since you can read my mind, can you guess what I am thinking now? :) :)

Four months in an Islamic nation does not equal a lifetime. I imagine a four month trip would be more on the interesting, educational, tourism, side of things than the “in your face” side. Imaging having Islam in your face for your whole life. If it were safe, which it currently is not, I would actually enjoy a brief visit to an Islamic nation. It would be very educational.

More words in my mouth. What makes you think I am for censorship of religion? This very dialogue, this thread, even the whole OT section of Pelican is a great exercise in free speech and freedom of religion. It is the antithesis of censorship. We are both exercising our rights to free speech and freedom of religion. Where do you get censorship out of that?

I’m sure it took a lot of guts to post that. We appreciate the honesty.

I agree with Rick when he says “there is a vast difference between Christianity and organized religion.” I have many more issues with organized religion than I do with individuals and their own spiritual beliefs. Sometimes I make the mistake of “guilty by association.” Sometimes it’s a valid association and sometimes it is not. I apologize for the times it is not.

I’m curious, though, what items have given you pause for thought? Thought which way (towards or against)? And why don’t they hold up to skeptical exam?