No, we do not resemble Germans.

Americans are fat, stupid and lazy. Unless you have some pill that will cure that, well, we are out of luck. If you think Americans are going to stop watching TV, get off the couch and work hard, you are sadly mistaken, unless you have a pill they can take to do it easily.

People don't care if they do a good job anymore, to a large degree. I see a long, gradual decline, then the Chinese will push us off into the ocean.

I'm not so sure I should grace your post with any response, but I'll try again. I'm not bashing unions or American engineers. In fact, I am attempting to cut through your emotions to suggest that our engineers are second to none, and that we should be standing at the top of the world in terms of innovation and quality. Some will argue we are, but business strategy seems to have been ignored. Or at least pursued at the individual corporation level only. The Germans have done a thing called "differentiation." So have the Japanese. One of the questions I am asking is where you think we can compete the most effectively. Sure, a good strategy would be to compete in all those perceptual "markets," but I'm suggesting we're more like the Germans (building a better mousetrap) than the Japanese (stamp out a bazillion and make money on economies of scale). Perhaps I am speaking to some folks here, and not you.

But to respond directly to the tiniest and most divisive issues you seem to prefer: No, I don't think the German Engineering reputation is mythological or historical. Yes, I have noticed that American companies are making better cars. I notice that most of the parts and now much of the actual assembly happens somewhere else. And GM is caught with its pants down pursuing the quick buck and I kinda hope the judges allow it to die. I like Ford pickups, I've always liked Ford pickups and I own one now. Proudly. But beyond pickup trucks, I have absolutely no interest in any American cars. I'd be willing to pay to NOT have to drive one.

One of my boss' favorite cars is the Lincoln Towncar. He likes Jaguars. Smooth and quiet is largely what he's after, though he likes the styling of the Boxster. I don't, but he does. He was very very impressed with the large BMW he spent time in, in Germany. If you don't understand why, then you're probably not going to understand the love we have here for Porsches. 'Course, if your German car experience is limited to the 944, then that explains much of the disconnect we seem to be having.

There is no doubt that I am a liberal. I can tell because I'd rather figure out a way to remain proud of my country and make your predictions incorrect. As opposed to whining about the organizations that represent our workforce........and everything else for that matter.

Is it inevitable? Are we going to get our asses kicked, butt good, and there's nothing we can do about it?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do We Resemble Germans?
 

I think there a lot more to this than HP & price numbers on NEW vehicles.

Go out and grab a sample of 5 & 10 year old versions of Volkswagen Jettas, Pontiac Grand Prix and Chev Cavaliers. Do you really think the US cars held up as well as the VW? What about 10 yr old BMW and Cadillac of equal value?

I would love to find out that the US cars are as well engineered and built as European cars. To be honest, I'm not totally impressed with VWs lately, but I still doubt a used Chev or Dodge is as good as a used VW.

I'll start considering US cars when 10 yr old Cavaliers start holding up as well as 10 yr old Corollas and Civics. I still think the Japanese make a better quality car than US or European cars. I like European cars more, but I still think Japanese cars are more reliable, if boring.

i was comparing us to prewar germany not to post war. I do this to show how we are going the same route they did. I work with ww2 vets...they are scared, my father in law is scared(also ww2 vet) I have a freind who was living in germany...he is saying that we are going the same road. See that is what is so good about history...if we ignore it, it repeats itself......The Iraq war is the new Vietnam and that scares me...my old man was there for 8 years...when will I have to go?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do We Resemble Germans?
 

Precisely!!!!!! You got it. The Japanese make a fine product, particularly from a reliability standpoint. But the Germans have managed to maintain a market, not through deception as some folks here seem to imagine. But through design.

Naw, we're not Germans yet, not by a long shot. Us Americans like to substitute brains and work for attitude and showboating. We want to look good, not do anything good. But hey, that attitude is great for lots of things, its saved our butts in lots of areas of our economy and world policy. However, a good car it does not make.

German car manufacturers have a different design philosophy.

They actually think all cars should stop as well as they go, and handle as well as they stop and go.

You tell 'em, Tyson.

Germans expect a car to, first and foremost, be the best CAR it can be. For example, they don't expect them to barbecue a perfect steak. None of them come with a good shower. But if you want something that goes and stops and steers well, and is secure and obedient, and readily repairable but reliable mostly, then German cars are your best bet.

The clout of unions in general would go downhill with the demise of GM. Nobody else in the manufacturing sector employs union workers on the scale that the Big Two do. With no jobs, against what business will people organize?

And the Titanic was touted never to sink, with people believing the hype. Just because a majority believes something doesn't necessarily make it true.

Germany has their share of stinkers. A common acceptance is that the BMW X3 is an SUV with the ride of a sports car...the worst of both worlds. Doesn't help that Bangle hit it with the ugly stick.

It's also strange that the Chevy receives much higher reliability rankings than VW, which traditionally has been bottom of the barrel. I also rarely see economy cars of any make that are older than 10 years old. A cheap car is a cheap car, no matter where it comes from. The factor of cost prevents a company from building a car with 911 quality and soundness and selling it for $20k. The fact that US companies have health car and other obligations forcing them to compete with one hand tied behind their back doesn't help.

I don't recall Car and Driver having electrical failures after managing to stall an American car in reverse. They had problems after they did that with an automatic BMW 7 with iDrive. I don't recall exactly, but I think something significant quit working, like the instruments or something. All I know is it happened.

Don't forget the 996 RMS, or the premise that many feel shaky about the 997 RMS.

Funny you mention that. My high school was 1/4 boarding students, mainly from Korea. Some were extremely intelligent, locking themselves in their dorm rooms to work, doing independent studies in calculus, or competing on a national level in an art competition. Others wasted the night playing videogames and sleeping through class. We also had a fair percentage of American students who showed the same aptitude for math and science.

Judging how they can handle math, I think they have a better primary education system in place. Or discipline and family values are more ingrained in their cultures. The Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese aren't necessarily machines or natural geniuses, they merely have a head start.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do We Resemble Germans?
 

Thank you for reinforcing my point perfectly. Have you cross shopped these cars? I have, while recently helping my inlaws pick out a small sedan. You don't even have to drive one, just sit in it. The VW has deep, finely grained plastics, with few obvious seams, contrasting materials, all with a quality, rich feel. The Pontiac and Chevy, though an improvement over the cars they replace, still have an air of cheapness. The materials are not as nice, the fit and finish still isn't there, it's no comparison. Call myself, and all the others on this thread an idiot all you want, but when was the last time you saw a domestic come out on the top of a car comparison in a magazine? Even in the US magazines, which are far kinder to American cars than the European ones, American cars are lucky to finish in the top half of their comparisons. Again, I don't feel this is the fault of the engineers, within a few years I myself will be an American engineer, but the fault of those pulling the strings from above. Make all the excuses you like, American car companies make an inferior product, and that is why that are consistently losing market share. Americans as a whole vote with their pocketbooks, GM on the verge of bankruptcy says it all.

regardless of price, foreign vehicles (especially german) are better quailty than american cars. thats why we went through two pontiac minvans from 1994 to 2003 and my dad is still driving his 1993 BMW 525i everyday (and i can still take it out and drive it like im on teh autobahn)

Germen chicks will pork yer eyes out!

GM went out of business because management had its head up its a$$. Blame the unions all you want, but it was not responsible for management decision-making. When a company goes tits-up, it is management's fault. Pure and very very simple. Unless you live in fantasy land.

And when management is booted out and other companies take over their assets, those worker will hopefully have skilled decision-makers to work for. Judges do nobody any favors when they make herculean efforts to keep a dead company from dying.

I bought a new VW Rabbit in 1984. That was our family car for many years. I rebuilt the alternator once, thought it didn't need it. I replaced the water pump a couple of times, at least. I replaced the starter. The odometer quit working several years before I sold it, and it said about 250K miles at selling time. In other words, this car had a cool 350,000 miles on it. Here's the part I wouldn't even believe if I didn't know for a fact it was true:

That car's engine and transmission had never been removed or separated. It still had the factory clutch disk in it.

American cars don't take the second hundred thousand miles nearly as gracefully as the first. And forget about the third or fourth.

The average German thinks the average American is (to also quote someone else above) fat, lazy, loud mouthed and dumber than a box of hammers. But then, they love the Hoff so what the hell would they know.

Typically I disagree with Supe, but this time you're spot on. Though I have my own personal feelings about unions, GM screwed themselves. For years they built crap, slapped five different labels on it, and tried to push it off on the public as different cars. Finally, the public wised up, and realized that not only is a Hyundai cheaper, it's a better car. Low price and incenties used to be GMs ace in the hole, now they don't even have that advantage.

And Hyundia and Kia are making fleet vehicles now too, the Big 3's bread and butter. I had a Kia rental the other day, it was made from recycled milk jugs and a snowmobile engine, probably cost $500 to produce. My Detroiters are in some deep shizole.

Somebody at GM wised up though. The new Solitice/Sky platform is going to sell like crazy, and the new Pontiac Torrent looks promising.

They are turning it around, but slowly. The Solstice and G6 are the first Pontiacs in a long time that don't look like they were styled by someone with a mullet. Thank God they got rid of that tacky cladding. The Bonneville wouldn't be too bad with the V8, except it's still FWD. Chevy is still horribly dull, they came out with a new Malibu and Impala, but did anybody even notice? Despite my deep personal hate for Saturns, the Sky is quite nice. And Buick, well they're still styling cars for old people, but that's their niche. Cadillac is ahead of them all though, the CTS is finally at least somewhat of a competitor in it's class, and the new STS and DTS look at least promising.

Only question is, are they improving fast enough to catch up, as the other companies aren't just sitting around either. Thus far, I think the answer is no.

My bad. I thought "swarthy Carthinian" meant "argumentative guy who wears women's clothing."

Like this guy?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133913725.jpg

Oh wait, he was a Carpathian...