I AM VEGO!!!!

I think a lot of the perceived differences are really cultural.

The German educational system is far more rigorous than the American. When a German engineer graduates, he has learned and retained far more than an American one. And yes, I did get a BSME 15 years ago.

Additionally, in Germany there is a tradition of craftsmanship and pride in good work. This is being somewhat diluted today (and hence the declining quality), but it's a far cry from the United States. The poster who said Americans are fat, dumb and lazy is, to a certain extent, correct. Americans don't really care about anything but themselves, and making a quick buck. People in our culture don't care about society as a whole, only about how they themselves can get ahead by whatever means necessary, and the quicker the better. Contrast this with Japanese culture, and the difference is quite apparent.

You see examples of this every day. Look at the whole SUV craze. All Americans want is to look cool, no matter how stupid a vehicle we drive. Ford and GM realize this, and are willing to capitalize on it, producing huge profit margins on them. Did it ever occur to them that cheap gas was not going to last and they had better make some contingency plans? Nope. Just keep raking in the cash while they can. Look at them now.

Did we stop to think that R&D work on hybrids might pay off and devote some resources to that? Nope, why bother. Let's just pay obscene salaries to our auto execs and keep cranking out the crap.

When the ****e hit the fan at the pump, there we were with our pants down while the Japanese just smiled.

Until we learn to think ahead and worry about more than ourselves, we're doomed to failure.

ianc

This is exactly why the German-designed Cayenne is such a hit over here... oh, wait... nevermind. :p

Remember the lame Pontiac TV ad with the helicopter pilots? "I checked out the BMW, but I bought the Bonneville instead." People actually believe the supercharged SSEi etc with all of the body cladding and hype is better than a BMW. The Grand-Am stylists even stole the kidney grill of the BMW.

Americans actually buy into that type of advertising. A friend's father retired from public relations at GM. He would make fun of the German method of naming cars with numbers. I guess it makes more sense to name a car after some exotic and far-away place/event that has absolutely nothing to do with the car. Monte Carlo, LeMans, Grand-Prix, Grand-Am, etc.

The writing has been on the wall for years. I can't believe it has taken this long.

Touche', but at least it isn't the only model that Porsche manages to turn a profit on. I read an article about GM that stated that GM either broke even, or in some cases even lost money on it's various sales on cars this summer. The cash cow truck and SUV market was keeping them afloat, until $3/gal gas. Similar issues at Ford, though not as dire.

Remember the initial GTO ads comparing them to a BMW? They compared the GTO performance to a 328 coupe if I remember right, of course a car with twice the displacement will have better numbers.:rolleyes:

Don't know if it's exactly a 'hit', but the last two words are extremely relevant. I don't see Porsche's stock at the lowest it's been in 20 years because gas prices have gone through the roof...

ianc

:D :D :D

Supe, for equal money can you buy a Porsche that will outperform a Corvette on the track, or in value retention? With equivalent attention, which will cost less to operate and maintain?

In a recent comparison, C&D called the new Z06 "scary" on the track, IN COMPARISON TO A VIPER! Not exactly the most benign of cars to compare it to. In another C&D comparison between a Corvette and a 911, the only reason the Corvette came out on top was price.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8774

If you don't mind the less than stellar build quality, a Corvette is a performance bargain, no one will argue that. But you can't possibly argue that it has better resale value. Anything Chevy, even a Corvette, drops like a rock (no pun intended). Yes, a Porsche will be more expensive to maintain, most German cars are. But I think most people here would argue that you get what you pay for. You want to start talking like that, what about comparing maintenance and repairs for American vs Japanese cars. Plus, while most American cars are starting to decline in a hurry after 100k, German and Japanese ones are just getting started. I wouldn't have dreamed of buying an American sedan with 134k on it, but with my 540 I didn't think twice.

I resent that. I'm not argumentative.

I bet we buy more 911's from Germany than Germans buy Corvettes. In fact, I'll bet Germany sells more 911's to us than we sell Corvettes abroad, period.

I belive the word used on Top Gear to describe the new Vette was "rubbish".

Those are not the responses I was expecting.

1st: Corvettes do pretty well at retaining their value, especially after a few years.

2nd: honestly, comparing Porsche's US sales to Corvette's German sales? Lets compare Corvette's US sales to Porsche's US sales.

3rd : My comparison was stupid in the first place. Comparing one model from GM to make the case that US engineering is top-notch across the automotive industry is silly. But so is looking at a brief slice of time and saying that all Americans are fat and lazy because we don't build cars like BMW's. Shoot in 1993 Porsche sold less than 4000 cars in the US. If the comparison were to be made then, what conclusions would we draw? American manufacturers are building cars for an economic purpose. They see sedans as appliances, and are selling to the segment of the market that agrees with that vision. Porsche, Audi, BMW, Mrecedes are selling excellence and exclusivity. GM needs to build and sell desirable ubiquitous cars. That used to be trucks, now they need to find some sedans that fit the bill. Superman is right in that if the product is there, finances will be worked out, and management would be better served by focusing on its vehicle lineup rather than its compensation. But the US, as well as producing some excellent workers and engineers, has developed some competant managers also. A near-death experience could well be what GM and the American auto industry needs. It worked for Porsche.

Did someboday say Corinthian? "Rich Corinthian leather, why not the best?"

Another marketing abomination. To American buyers, Ricardo Montalban's foreign sounding accent lent credibility to the tarted up K-car. Maybe Americans really are living on Fantasy Island. Granted, this was the 80's.

Why can't the greatest country on earth make the greatest cars on earth?

I would not characterize the tone of the post you quote as whining.

I am not fat, lazy or stupid, despite the fact that I am American. I don't feel entitled to anything I don't earn, and take pride in doing the best job possible on everthing I do. There was a time when that would make me an average American, today it puts me on the top of the heap. Go down to the local public High School, look around and talk to the future of America. This will give you an idea why no one is going to say I am wrong.

What does you being a liberal have to do with figuring a way to stay proud of your country? I guess it is because conservatives don't care about their country and are happy with the decay of this great nation.

I thought it was the conservatives that were the proud ones, while the libs think our country is going to hell in a handbasket? I don't really car, despite all the BS, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

And I agree with Tobra, unfortunately. Most people just don't care anymore.

I don't disagree with you, Tobra. I see the same things, and shake my head. But I don't stop there. I'm asking whether there is a way for us to do what another poster said very well. Why can't the greatest country on Earth make the greatest car?

We can make the great car, they called them Packards and Duesenbergs, but they went out of business.

Don't get me wrong, I sincerely believe that Americans are still quite capable of great things. There are a lot of folks that do great things every single day. We have great artists, engineers, scientists, all that, but the great majority of the people here are simply mediocre at best.

People always tell me I am a complete bastard to say it, but here is why, in my opinion, the US has gone so far down the tubes.

The best and the brightest are having the fewest children and the worst people are having the most. Think about it. The most intelligent people tend to go to college, and have fewer children later in life. How many couples do you know where both of them are college educated and they have more than 2 children? My parents are the only ones I know, and they did it 40 years ago.

The situation is totally reversed for folks that are having lots of children. They tend to be from lower socioeconomic levels, less educated, frequently with drug issues, often less intelligent. They are having 4, 6 or even more children, very frequently on some sort of government assistance. There is a cash incentive for them to do it, the effect is that the government is subsidizing large, single parent families that are much less likely to produce productive members of society. Over time, this will give you lots of not so smart people, and a few smart ones that are doing all the work. I have personally seen a large number of cases where there are 4 generations, none of them even trying to get a job, all on the public dole. There are politicians who take advantage of this sort of thing, championing all sorts of social programs that create a large dependant population, on the assumption that they can count on their votes.

What to do about this, assuming I am not totally insane? You have to remove the incentive to have a ton of kids you can't support. You have to quit giving, and start making people earn a check. You must instill in the population a sense of empowerment. In the words of a dead Irishman, Ask not what your country can do for you, etc, etc.

Of course, this is all mental masturbation, it would be political suicide to talk about stuff like this. Ther are a lot of strengths to a democratic society, leaders having to get elected from time to time is not one of them.

Well said, though I think there's other problems with our society as well leading to this. I read an interesting paper in an ethics class regarding this issue, essentially stating that the welfare system was creating a dependent society that has no motivation or self worth. A topic for another thread, but very true, though I'm sure there's some libs on here that would debate it until they are red in the face. People with genuine problems (blind, paraplegic, etc) should recieve government assistance, a woman who's had five children from different fathers should not.