Democratic fears are finally realized

[fintstone]

Ok Democrats, the event you have feared us happening....I know, I know....a quagmire like Vietnam. I can only imagine how you will try to spin this one...


Early Voting Across Iraq Begins
Today: December 11, 2005 at 23:46:9 PST

ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -

Iraqis in hospitals, military camps and prisons cast ballots on Monday in early voting for a new National Assembly.

At the Yarmouk hospital in central Baghdad, election officials said the first of 1,500 patients had voted ahead of the main election day on Thursday.

On Tuesday, the estimated 1.5 million Iraqi voters living outside the country can begin casting their ballots at polling centers in 15 countries, including the United States, Canada and Australia.

"The election process is running very well," said Yousif Ibrahim, director of the election center at Yarmouk hospital. "There is a big hall for patients who can easily walk, and the election committee moves a box around to the wards where there are patients who can't leave their beds."

[Mulhollanddose]

You haven't got the demoRAT memo, fint?...The Iraqis had it better under Saddam than under the imperialist Bush and his war for oil...This is all about Halliburton and the neocon Joooo lovers.

[CamB]

Keep your hands on your own peckers fellas.

Personally, I'd love to see Iraq "fixed" asap, and for the abortion of a war to never happen again. $300b buys a lot of peaceful outcomes.

[kach22i]

I caught a little Fox news this weekend.

Appears that a reported and camera man were brave enough to venture outside the "Green Zone".

They showed pictures of Iraqi's purchasing plasma TV's and electronics, and lots of power generators. The story was the power outages are because so many Iraqi's are plugging in.

Unemployment is half of what it was a year ago, and a flower grows in every pile of camel dung..........or something like that.

I wonder how much the Pentagon paid these guys to read the script.

Oh yea, and the elections are going to fix everything.

[RoninLB]

Terrorists can't embed without population support or apathy. All gangland murders won't be stopped after the election but the numbers will decrease. A few hundred homicides a year is acceptable to many. NYC has over 400 homicides a yr with a population of 8 million. If Iraq has the same number with a larger population, I think they have 45 million, it'll be safer to live in Iraq than NYC.

[Jeff Higgins]

The sad part is they will probably get a higher voter turnout than we do. Freedom seems to taste a little sweeter when it's brand new. I wish them well.

[RoninLB]

If no civil war happens then this election means they will be worldwide recognized as a legit nation state. Hopefully this will lead to greater economic development and international investment. Job opportunity must be in their future for stability.

The Bush haters are going to have fun spinning that.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by kach22i
I caught a little Fox news this weekend.

Appears that a reported and camera man were brave enough to venture outside the "Green Zone".

They showed pictures of Iraqi's purchasing plasma TV's and electronics, and lots of power generators. The story was the power outages are because so many Iraqi's are plugging in.

Oh yea, and the elections are going to fix everything.

Kach, Hate to rain on your parade but was in Beirut most of last week. Its a supposedly civilized area now that the civil war ended 15 years ago. Its right next to Syria and Iraq in case you are not familiar.

We lost power on average every 2 hours, and a minimum of 10 times a day. Was in Saudi Arabia two days ago. We lost power here 1-2 times a day there as well. Have been in 6 different countries in area and with one exception they are much the same in this area. Even though it does stay on, everyone has a "voltage stabilizer" that anything sensative (computers and such) are plugged in as the voltage and hertz varies too far to be good for electronics.

Losing electrical power in this part of the world is not unusual. Not sure how much time you have spent in this neck of the woods but I have been here on and off the last 6 weeks. Now am in Dubai and its the first place we have been where the power is stable and has stayed on for over 24 hours with no issues. If you are not familiar with the daily life here, please do not try to make it seem bad to futher your political ideas. These people did not all have electricity when Saddam was here, so this is nothing new or different to them.

Also, do you watch TV much? There are reporters in just about every part of Iraq. They are not scared to go out of the green zone and do so on a daily basis. You have spent a lot of time there I assume?

BTW, the elections are not going to fix anything. Its the people and their leaders who have that job. Have you ever lived under a dictator or regime that controls everything in the country? I have not but while based in Berlin I lived 50 meters away from an entire group of people (East Germany) who were and know a lot about it. Having no say-so in the running of your country and your future makes that future rather bleak. I would not like it very much and assume that you might just feel the same. Please give us your ideas on what it would be like living under Saddam and how much better that might be when you have time...

Joe A

[fintstone]

A truly brilliant article on the subject:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007661

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
We lost power on average every 2 hours, and a minimum of 10 times a day.

And as you said - that's a typical situation in that part of the world. So in your opinion why would Fox news claim that Iraq's power outages are because the use of electronics (booming economy) is up?

Just telling you what they said, don't shot the messenger.

FYI: I end up taking to several people a year who have family in Iraq, the despair they have felt from this war is like nothing they lived with under that crazy bastard Saddam. Like going from frying pan to fire - my anology.

[RallyJon]

Just telling you what they said, don't shot the messenger.

Isn't it OK to shoot the messenger when they take a message and, rather than delivering it, they open it up, corrupt it's meaning and deliver the corrupted version as if it's a better message than the original?

[kach22i]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Isn't it OK to shoot the messenger when they take a message and, rather than delivering it, they open it up, corrupt it's meaning and deliver the corrupted version as if it's a better message than the original?

I think what you are describing is called "spin" or "marketing".

What's that have to do with this?

Don't go shooting people, they might shoot back.

[Tobra]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Isn't it OK to shoot the messenger when they take a message and, rather than delivering it, they open it up, corrupt it's meaning and deliver the corrupted version as if it's a better message than the original?

In the leg maybe. I must be listening to the wrong radio stations; last I heard like 71% of the Iraquis thought their daily life was pretty good, better than it had been under Saddam.

Sunni politician just got shot, right after he encouraged people to go out and vote.

[CamB]

Originally posted by fintstone
A truly brilliant article on the subject:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007661

Well yeah, it's long. If "long" and "brilliant" are the same then its brilliant.

I have a simple counterpoint, based on my own observation and nothing else. The MSM outside the US, which the US doesn't see, focuses on exactly the same stuff (it has less of the human interest puff) as the US MSM.

I will tell you why I think the media focuses that way. Like me, they probably look at Iraq and wonder what it takes to rebuild it. I read in today's paper that the World Bank has estimated about US$35b. Currently the US is spending $1b/week, which I understand doesn't really include much rebuilding - its all security.

Security is the problem. Security is the news.

[aways]

Originally posted by CamB
Well yeah, it's long. If "long" and "brilliant" are the same then its brilliant.

I have a simple counterpoint, based on my own observation and nothing else. The MSM outside the US, which the US doesn't see, focuses on exactly the same stuff (it has less of the human interest puff) as the US MSM.

I will tell you why I think the media focuses that way. Like me, they probably look at Iraq and wonder what it takes to rebuild it. I read in today's paper that the World Bank has estimated about US$35b. Currently the US is spending $1b/week, which I understand doesn't really include much rebuilding - its all security.

Security is the problem. Security is the news.

I don't think the give a flying F*** about the cost of rebuilding... I'm familiar with the MSM outside the US, and in Europe, anyway, it's rabidly anti-US. Europe resents the fact that they are becoming increasingly irrelevant as a world military and economic power. The MSM outside the US HATES the US even more that the leftist press in the US does, because they also lack the ability to make moral judgements, and they don't like the exercise American power, even when objectively they know it's for a righteous cause. Resentment of the US is their problem. And resentment of the US dominates their "news".

It's also part of the reason that they always support the Palestinians agains the Israelis. The Israelis are more "powerful" militarily and economically, therefore they have an "unfair" advantage in what the world MSM sees as a morally-equivalent conflict. The MSM doesn't see the world in right vs wrong or good vs evil, only in terms of rich vs poor, and powerful vs weak.

[fintstone]

Why would the media outside the US care about the cost to rebuild Iraq? They did not seem to care that Saddam was turning it from the prosperous "breadbasket of the middle east" to a starving pauper country which tortured and executed its own citizens routinely for pleasure. It is not like anyone other than the US and coalition allies are doing anything to help. I recommend we just divert the amount that the UN would get from the US in dues to help cover costs...since the UN is largely to blame for the middle east's problems and we (the coalition) have to do all the hard lifting ourselves.

[snowman]

There are a lot of leftest freeks in the media, everywhere. They hate capitalism and the US even more, no holds barred. This is a consideration that must be factored in when reading ANYTHING any media published.

[CamB]

You're all looking at non-US media's relatively neutral coverage - which is not pro-US - and confusing "not-pro-US" with "anti-US". I'm sorry to say it, but you've all just given a knee-jerk reaction without really thinking about it.

Look to the UK. They have numerous, widely read, newspapers from across the political spectrum. Have a look at the coverage in the news (not the editorial) pages from them - they are similar, and they aren't anti-US. They're just not pro-US (which, by the way, any non-US person will tell you your own press is very pro-US).

You guys might find this article interesting - an op-ed from a Marine in the Washington Post (they're not totally biased...):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/13/AR2005121301502.html

[Superman]

Originally posted by snowman
There are a lot of leftest freeks in the media, everywhere. They hate capitalism and the US even more, no holds barred. This is a consideration that must be factored in when reading ANYTHING any media published.

Yep, right you are. Easy to understand the simple principle that the most daffy, misguided, lame-brained idiots in our society are the ones teaching school and the ones conducting and forwarding research information to the public. In other words, the less educated you are and the less research you do, the smarter you are politically. Carry on. I always like this.

[snowman]

Yeh, like show me an editor that can tie his own shoes.