Our president lies to us -- again

[Rodeo]

At the news conference today, President Bush repeatedly cited the “need for speed” as the reason his administration has illegally ordered the National Security Agency to spy on Americans without benefit of search warrants. That would be a compelling argument, if only it were true:

QUESTION: Getting back to the domestic spying issue for a moment, according to FISA's own records, it's received nearly 19,000 requests for wiretaps or search warrants since 1979, rejected just five of them. It also operates in secret, so security shouldn't be a concern. And it can be applied retroactively. Given such a powerful tool of law enforcement is at your disposal, sir, why did you see fit to sidetrack that process?

BUSH: We used the process to monitor. But also, this is a different era, different war. It's a war where people are changing phone numbers and phone calls, and they're moving quick. And we've got to be able to detect and prevent. I keep saying that. But this is -- it requires quick action.

FISA warrants can be obtained 72 hours AFTER the domestic surveillance has begun, that’s 3 days to obtain a retroactive warrant. And as we now know, the chances of being denied a warrant from a FISA Court are statistically zero.

Three days. Zero percent chance of being denied. Yet this was still too much "oversight," so a secret Executive Order suspended the Fourth Amendment for any American unlucky enough to find themselves in the Bush/Cheney cross hairs.

So why didn't the president just ask for retroactive warrants? We don’t know, because he ducked the question, then he cited a bogus reason for his illegal actions, the “need for speed.” This is calculated, premeditated lying. There’s no better term for it.

[widebody911]

why didn't the president just ask for retroactive warrants?

Because he doesn't want any trail, which is consistent with the allegations that he's using it for domestic political purposes.

[stevepaa]

Tricky Dick comes back to life?

[Superman]

It looks like somebody might be in trouble.

That was a really quick wagon the Republicans had there for a while. Bummer that the road down is so steep. Dubya has been the perfect "president" to remind the nation why we have traditionally voted liberal. By 2008, some of these stories might be getting very interesting. Even more interesting than the blowjob in the Oval Office.

[legion]

Hmm...we have several of the "master of nuance" on this thread. Try this one on:

The purpose of most wire taps are to gather evidence to be used in a court of law for a criminal trial. There are very strict laws and precedents on what is and what is not admissable.

But what about when the purpose of a wire tap is not to bring criminal charges? Do the same laws and procedures apply?

The things discussed here were for the purpose of gathering intelligence, not to convict people of crimes.

I could see the New York Times screaming that Bush didn't do enough to prevent an attack should we have been successfully attacked again. Now they are screaming that he did too much. A catch 22 if I've ever seen one.

This program, from what I gather, has been renewed by the Senate 12 times since 9/11. The argument that there was no oversight is baseless. I also notice that several of the senators that approved of the program multiple times are denouncing it as loudly as possible. Hypocritical?

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by legion
This program, from what I gather, has been renewed by the Senate 12 times since 9/11. The argument that there was no oversight is baseless. I also notice that several of the senators that approved of the program multiple times are denouncing it as loudly as possible. Hypocritical?

I have no idea what you are talking about

[kach22i]

The Sunday morning political shows were all explaining the President's reasoning for not using the FISA warrants I surfed five shows including cable (Fox too).

There was one exception, the one program which had Senator Joseph Biden as a guest. Biden was good, but the only desenting voice at the time being aired - a lone voice.

The right wing controls TV programing, Sunday was clear evidence.

[Seahawk]

Where is the lie? Three days is a lifetime in this type of effort. You may disagree with that supposition, but clearly others do not: how is that a lie? Unless there is more supporting evidence than cited below...

[kach22i]

Originally posted by legion
But what about when the purpose of a wire tap is not to bring criminal charges? Do the same laws and procedures apply?

You mean like all of Saddam's henchmen/henchwomen that were just let go without charges?

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by Seahawk
Where is the lie? Three days is a lifetime in this type of effort. You may disagree with that supposition, but clearly others do not: how is that a lie? Unless there is more supporting evidence than cited below...

Retroactive means the warrants can be gotten AFTER the surveillance.

You just made the case for FISA warrants ... three days is a lifetime, and the administration had three days after they began wiretapping to get a FISA warrant.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally posted by kach22i

The right wing controls TV programing, Sunday was clear evidence.

WHAT!? Do you watch the news? The only one that even admits that there is a second point of view is FOX, and at least their commentators that have a conservative bias will admit it. The rest are snakes in the grass.

With this recent issue I wonder, if this were a Democrat administration, would the same people be yelling about it? For that matter Rodeo, would you have still posted this thread?

[legion]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
With this recent issue I wonder, if this were a Democrat administration, would the same people be yelling about it? For that matter Rodeo, would you have still posted this thread?

Of course he wouldn't have. They NYT never would have reported this...

[kach22i]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
WHAT!? Do you watch the news?

Lets see, Condi was on one station, Republican after nameless Republican were on the others stations - first impressions are lasting ones. Fox had some idiot posing as a Democrat blathering incoherently - sucks.

[legion]

Wait, I thought Bush was an idiot unable to mount such a well-coordinate PR blitz?

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by onewhippedpuppy
***I wonder, if this were a Democrat administration, would the same people be yelling about it? For that matter Rodeo, would you have still posted this thread?

Nah, I had better things to do back then

But I'll tell you what, when Clinton went on TV and lied to us, lied to me personally it felt like, I was plenty pissed. I lost a lot of respect for that man, it was a cowardly thing to do. And it was dead wrong. And that lie had nothing to do with encroaching totalitarianism, which is what this is all about.

We fought the reds for 50 years because they did things like this to their people! Where are the true conservatives???? Where is the outrage that our own government is spying on us?

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Retroactive means the warrants can be gotten AFTER the surveillance.

You just made the case for FISA warrants ... three days is a lifetime, and the administration had three days after they began wiretapping to get a FISA warrant.

I understood...you just made my point: they have probably moved on before 72 hours expires. Why bother with the paperwork if approval is guaranteed. And where is the lie?

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Seahawk
Why bother with the paperwork if approval is guaranteed.

Are you joking?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Seahawk
I understood...you just made my point: they have probably moved on before 72 hours expires. Why bother with the paperwork if approval is guaranteed. And where is the lie?

how do you like cowboys in your outfit?

at what point is thumbing your nose at the law going too far?

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by Seahawk
I understood...you just made my point: they have probably moved on before 72 hours expires. Why bother with the paperwork if approval is guaranteed. And where is the lie?

The Fourth Amendment isn't paperwork! A 9-0 Supreme Court decision saying that it is illegal to do this is not paperwork, the rule of law is not paperwork. Please think about what it means to be an American. To live in a country where law pervails, not the whim of man.

Communists spied on their own people. Fascists spied on their own people. Chinese communists and Bulgarians and East German operatives spied on their own people.

Remember Ronald Reagan? Remember freedom? What exactly do you think freedom is, if not the right to be left alone?

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by nostatic
how do you like cowboys in your outfit?

at what point is thumbing your nose at the law going too far?

I am the cowboy in my outfit...

And as we now know, the chances of being denied a warrant from a FISA Court are statistically zero.

I am not kidding...diverting resources to an effort that is at a statistically zero chance of failure means I've got better things to do.

Fix the approval process.