Read This

[Planter91C2]

hazarati,

the reason you do not feel as strongly about this as i do is because you are a foriegn born mideast muslim. you cannot have the same connection to these events as i do.

name calling (mental midget) and attributing the qualities of eneducated, blue collar, and frustrated to patriotic americans reveals your true feelings.

i'll bet you think that about all US born americans.

well, you are very wrong.

saying that steve has a worthless life is even more revealing about the muslim thought patterns. i don't even know steve, but would feel more comfortable with him than a whining little muslim name-calling doctor who doesn't like patriotic americans

[SteveStromberg]

Its is easy to throw insults over the net. VERY few people Insult me to my face At 6'3" 265lbs This WATERMAN just split a Five pack of Whoopass with them. Yes my father's family is from Sweden they were seamen who move to Montana in 1870's, most if not all with the name Stromberg came from the same town in Sweden.
I dont drink or smoke, I favorite activity is long distance Open ocean swimming, 4 miles is my normal swim, Sorry if you do not like the way I feel but I am one of the few on this post who uses his real name not some handle. By the way I am not a follower of the Hebrew religion, As Jesus Christ is the King of Kings, Lord of lords. If you think that I am a kook I really do not care.
Steve

[Rustbucket]

Originally posted by hhazrati:
They are mostly uneducated, blue collar workers who gravitate to extremist ideology to fill a void in their lives.

? What is wrong with people who haven't had 5+ years of secondary education and hold blue collar jobs?

Is that some kind of supremist statement?


------------------
Clint
73T mfi coupe

[milehi914]

It is trully sad what human beings will subject other human beings to. No one is innocent of this. Christians, Americans, Muslims, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Isrealis, you get my point. And look now at what Americans are doing to each other, even on this board. Calling names and spouting hatred. I hope that people remember to respect human life and to care for all of our brothers and sisters in this horrible time. I heard on the news that some man physically assaulted a gas station attendant who he thought was a middle eastern muslim. HE WAS FROM MORROCO AND AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. I agree it looks like we are going to war and something does need to be done. When we start attacking Afghanistan we will be killing human beings. And we should be mindful of the human life that will be lost on both sides. The majority of the people in Afaghanastan do not support the Taliban. The Taliban were not elected. The majority of those people are just trying to live their lives where they happened to be born just like the majority of Americans. So, don't let the loss of life be lost on you when it happens. AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS.

My heart felt sympathies go out to all Americans and the families and friends of those who were injured and lost.

-also I would like to see a reference for your statistic of citizen Muslims in the USA. And I don't want some out there biased publication. Hard facts please.

[SteveStromberg]

Alex Jones will have Adm. Moore former head of The Joint Cheifs of Staff on in about 5 minutes give a lidten. Steve

http://sce.m2ktalk.com:8000/listen.pls

[Pillow]

hhazrati, I think from your comments about Steve and Planter that you are the narrow minded one. Just because you have a PHD does not mean that you are better than a high school drop out working in a factory or office building. I have seen many people who are filthy rich and did not gradate high school. Also I have seen very poor people demonstrate more class than a bunch of yuppie trash on the Harvard lawn. And that is what makes America great!

We are here sharing ideas and that is all.

I do not know who threw the racism card here, but I think it was unfair to do so. From what I can tell the action called for here was that all VISAs be revoked, not sure if this would be for only middle-eastern countries or all of them. I fail to see why this is racist..?

I also think it is sad that middle-eastern citizens are being persecuted by ignorant people here in the US... Most instances I have heard of are against people who are not even from Iraq or Afghanastan (sp)! If you choose to attack someone at least make sure that they are from the correct region, not a US citizen, and are a Talidad supporter first... Then proceed to kick thier ass (not sure if this is a joke).

And for what it is worth I would be happy to stay with SteveS or Saffs, but for entirely different reasons both positive. Granted when all hell breaks loose I will be high in the mountains locked and loaded, and my doors are open to all patriots who come.

God Bless,


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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Region

[Saffs]

Quote from stevestromberg:
Its is easy to throw insults over the net. VERY few people Insult me to my face At 6'3" 265lbs

Steve, with respect, whatever your size (I'm 2 inches shorter same weight BTW), if you told me I should be deported for being English here (the US) with a Visa, I'd disagree with this to your face or not. And I MEAN that respectfully. The same goes for you, Kurt, telling me to pack my bags...
I'm here on a Visa scheme which the US reciprocates with the UK to allow Entertainers in to both our Countries to make the Arts more enriched and diverse,i.e you see an English person in a US film or you see a UK band - hey, even the Rolling Stones were here on one of these. Likewise, US actors can be in UK films etc. US bands play in the UK.
Prior to being a Musician, I was a Social Worker and a Psychology graduate. I'd willing put any of my skills to good use - e.g helping relatives of the disaster, Counseling, etc. - to help in the disaster, I'd do it at a drop of a hat.
Still want me deported? You too Kurt? Want me to go "home"? You probably both do, but at least I can speak my case rather than have blanket statements made about me and you might understand more about who you make these statements over. And once again, I'm not crying in the corner, Kurt, not at all.
I hope I can do something that helps, I stand a greater chance doing it here than back in the UK when I'm "deported".

------------------
'75 911S Targa
'81 BMW Alpina C1 2.3

[patalive]

Good Grief! This forum is truly a slice of humanity.
-
First several caveats - my writing can become disjointed when I am emotional and upset, so bear with me on this. Second, I am only 5'8" tall, and well over 230 lbs. (But I do have big bones, honest). I truly don't measure up to SteveS's monumental and impressive proportions, so I guess I am a lessor person and perhaps my comments therefore will not carry the weight of his.(I do have a large nose which is a good target.) But I'll carry on in any event.
-
I subscribe to the position that once it is determined that Bin Laden is the guilty party (and we are just about there), we should demand the Afghan government turn this slimeball and his cohorts over to us, say within 48 hours. If they don't, then we "go in" and get him. Whatever it takes. No holds bared - it would be a war. There will be casualities on both sides, heavy ones, including civilians. That is a sad fact of war. Just like those massive casualities during WWII from the bombings, both in Gemany and the UK.
-
I fear a war in Afghanistan. Ground troops will be necessary and our casualities will be great. Look how long the Russians toiled there, took massive casualities and finally slunk away in defeat. And that's with sharing a border which made logistics far easier! Having been assigned to the American Embassy in Islamabad during the 1970s and driven numerous times over the Kyber Pass and thru the Kabul Gorge to Kabul, I can tell you that the Afghan terrain is rugged, very rugged. It is already a waterless moonscape!
-
No doubt, this action will bring out the radicals and radical regimes in Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and possibly Syria. We may very well be at war with those countries at the same time as well. I would not be surprised.
-
We will not be able to carry on this war by ourselves. Without a doubt, we will need our allies. Recently, our strongest ally has been the UK. This morning, at 4:00 am, I picked up on CNN Tony Blair's address to his Parliament (As I type this, it is being repeated on CNN). It is a powerful statement of support, lock step with the US. I requested a copy of his address from the British Embassy and would be happy to email it to anyone interested in reading it. By the way, the British Parliament was called back into session for this crisis, only the 18th time in British history. We are lucky to have the Brits as our allies.
-
Other countries will be stepping up to support us as well, in which some the Moslim faith is the primary one. Turkey comes to mind, as does Morocco, and Nepal. I mention these countries specifically because during previous wars, the Turks and Nepalese fielded some of the most feared fighting forces on the side of the allies. The North Koreans were petrifed of the Turks during that war. The Turks and Nepalese would be on familiar ground fighting a war in Afghanistan. Other countries will be with us eveidenced by NATO invoking Article 5. (I think this is the correct reference).
-
It disturbes me, then, when I hear calls that ALL aliens, both resident and non-resident, should be booted from the US. (On the other hand, I strongly believe that ALL illegal aliens should be booted with NO AMNESTY and that Army troops should be used to patrol our borders!). I am a second generation immigrant - all four of my grand parents came over on "the boat". If the same "deportation of aliens and their families" mentality prevailed at the begining of WWI and WWII, the outcomes of those wars might will have been different. (Check your history books on who developed the jet engine and atomic bomb!!) Legal aliens are what make this country great. I would venture to guess that we have very few native americans on this forum. The rest of us living in the US are decendents of aliens; you too, SteveS. (well, I guess those arriving on the Mayflower and boats shortly thereafter were not issued resident alien visas ). But you catch my drift.
-
Let me say one other thing about Arabs and Moslims - - I had a three year assignment in Damascus - yes Syria. Yes, the ruling party, including Assad, were anti-American (Although Assad had his children educated in US Ivy League schools). His party comprised about 15 percent of the population. The remaining 85 percent, were for the most part very PRO AMERICAN. The single bombing that occured in Damascus was at the Russian Embassy! (This was during the early 1980s). However, this 85 percent lived in abject fear of their government. How many of you remember the Homa uprising? When an anti-government movement began gaining weight in the city of Homa, (I believe it was Syria's fourth largest town) Assad put it down. He LEVELED the city and killed most of the citizens.
-
In spite of this fear, the pro-American Syrians we knew and worked with were our friends. On more than one occassion, they called or visited our apartment to reassure when there were pro-government demonstrations. Sadly, when Assad's goons would go on a rip and begin rounding up families for alledged transgressions, we Americans would find their family antiques in the Sook (market) as they cashed out their belongings and fled the country. My point? You cannot make generalizations that all Moslims and Arabs are the bad guys. That notion is foolish, ignorant and stupid.
-
Well, that's it. Sorry for the long post, and if any of you are still awake, I welcome your comments.
-
Chuck
83SC

[This message has been edited by patalive (edited 09-14-2001).]

[twin plugged targa]

Nice comment Chuck, nice to hear from someone that has lived in the company of Arabs, not just a tourist or a soldier sent to restore order.
I will depart now and let the remaining Arab haters start throwing their rocks and verbal diarrhoea.
rgds Ben

[Steve F]

Chuck, that is a very interesting back round you have,I find it very intriguing.May I ask what sort of occupation one may have to be where you where.Just curiuos,don't feel obliged to answer. Thanks.

5'5" and 190#(heavy bones and a lead butt)




------------------
1967 912 "in progress"
Now ,with a 2.0 T4 to play with!

[patalive]

Just a quick response - - Steve, I was a Foreign Serivce Officer with the U.S. Agency for International Development - the foreign assistance people. Retired in 1995. During my 25 years in, I served in Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt, Kenya, Syria and finally, the last four years in Barbados. (Someone has to do the dirty work ). In Egypt and Syria, we put together loan projects to finance power plants, electric distribution projects, water and sewage projects, rurals schools and clinics, etc. In Barbados, I worked more on building up the private sector capacity to compete in the real world.
-
Ben, after our four years in the Caribbean, I envy you your position as a Captain on a yacht. Have you been down to Union Island and the Tobago Cays? My favorite sailing area!

Chuck

[Kurt B]

I definitely said too much about the deportation on those grounds...in no way would I want you to be deported in reality. I am of English descent. I expect you to to laugh at the Saffeau thing, but you didn't and that is fine.

Forget the deportation. On those grounds I'll say, that was lame, overboard, and I shouldn't have said those specific words. It was meant to be exaggerated, grandios and not taken seriously.


[This message has been edited by Kurt B (edited 09-14-2001).]

[B Komar]

After reading most/ all of the comments above, one really stood out to me: The Porsche brotherhood, in case you haven't noticed is over forever. And such a shallow thing it was in hindsight. I've no interest in that hunk of metal in light of these things. The idea that I thought about that machine so much before makes me queasy. Nothing now makes any sense at all (per Kurt). After all that has happened as of late, you would think that one would look to something for some "normalcy" and something that would bring some happiness and solace. I think that denouncing the things that you love and that can give you some stability is ludicrous. I don't agree that this BBS should ban all these comments and opinions, but...after the bombarding of information and sadness of the last few days I looked to get a change and get back to some normalcy by reading this BB as I do EVERY day. I feel that "Burning Bridges" does no good no matter what... and bombasting your "brothers" here on this BBS has NO positive effects. I agree that American life has definitely changed forever, but some of the comments I have seen have been SEVERE over-reactions...I guess true colors truly shine through when the going gets tough....too bad. Some that I truly respected...have truly disappointed! Brian

[911racer]

Guys,
I,ve joined this board out of a love for Porsches, and I "thought" that I got to know some interesting individuals over the past months, even thought that it is a little family on the BBS. How wrong can you be. At the first sign of stress, some of the "family" turned into a rabid lynch mob and show a side of their character that I certainly do not like and most certainly cannot associate with.
Bin Laden is a muslim, so all muslims must be killed. Hitler was a German, so all Germans must be Jew-killing Hitlers. Deport all foreigners etc. This is not the type of stuff that I need in my life. It's a free world out there and everybody is free to say what he/she wants (especially when they can hide behind the anonymity of the internet), but I am also free not to want to read this any more. I am out of here for good to find other, better places to talk about Porsches. I will miss some of you, not all.
Adios and good bye.
Stef

[Bar]

Originally posted by SteveStromberg:
Its is easy to throw insults over the net. VERY few people Insult me to my face At 6'3" 265lbs
Steve

Trust me, Steve. Size doesn't mean anything. Three years as a lineman in college with 1 year in the NFL was whoopass enough to tell me that a "small" 5'11 210 RB could kick my tail all the time. I was 305 at the time, now a svelt 280 !

The greatest thing about this country is that everyone is allowed to have an opinion AND express it. No one else has to subscribe to it.

It is nice, however, that we can share our passions for the pcars without much heat (aside from the occaisional post from a vette lover).

[B Komar]

BTW....the "not a real Porsche" 914 BBS has nery a derogatory word or post and has maintained business as usual. Brian

[john walker's workshop]

we're all in shock about this for sure, but we need to stop bickering among ourselves and become one. this is a democracy and we're all entitled to our opinions, but united we stand, divided we fall. the enemy loves to see this turmoil. it weakens us.

[speeder]

Right on hhazrati!
Racism is Un-American! One of the many horrible effects of this week's tradgedy is it will bring the un-stable out of the woodwork and onto the internet. The ultimate irony is that the acts were commited by un-stable ideological zealots who do not even represent the religion that they think they belong to, just as certain posters above do not represent the country they think they are "saving". The country, and world will be saved without you, Thank you very much.
We are a nation of immigrants- it is our strength. This talk of extreme facist measures because we are "at war"? We are soon to be taking some very justified military vengence on known terrorists and states that support them. We will suffer casualties. This will all be accomplished by our very professional armed forces comprising all of the wonderful races and faces that make U.S. what it is- the greatest country in the world.
Only morons who have never been in a war relish the thought of it. My older brother was a U.S. Marine in Viet Nam at age 18 during the height of the war. He is now 50 yrs. old and a productive, intelligent and peaceful American- not a racist- far cry from Soldier of Fortune people posting here.
Incidentally- all of you insulting people and spewing hate on the internet- you are cowards. Do it face to face or shut up. It's funny- no one ever disrespects me to my face. Must have something to do with possible consequences not applicable to computer screen.
God Bless this great country and God Bless you hhazrati. Watch your back for the nuts out there.

[SteveStromberg]

U.S. fears attacks by 'sleepers'
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Security measures tightened nationwide yesterday to prevent "sleeper agents" from mounting new terrorist attacks, as the Justice Department identified the 19 hijackers who slammed three jetliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on Tuesday in hellish attacks that killed thousands.
With as many as 100 suspected accomplices still on the loose, increased security measures were visible yesterday throughout the country, particularly in the nation's capital. Buildings continue to be searched and evacuated. Suspicious persons have been pulled off planes in New York and ordered out of cars at gunpoint in the District.
Federal authorities noted that several of the hijackers, all with suspected ties to U.S. officials' prime suspect in the attacks -- international fugitive Osama bin Laden -- had been in this country for years, living in relative obscurity before carrying out their mission of devastation. There are concerns that they were part of a network of "sleeper agents" who can be called on at any time.
U.S. intelligence officials believe the 44-year-old bin Laden, who founded and funds the terrorist organization al-Qaeda, has more than 3,000 operatives in 34 countries.
President Bush was heavily escorted yesterday by U.S. Secret Service agents to the National Cathedral for a prayer service, three agents sitting directly behind him in a church full of military and political figures. Military jets later accompanied Air Force One to New York, where the president met with rescue workers at the World Trade Center site.
Several airports have reopened, but Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport remained closed because of security concerns. A number of major cities have beefed up police security patrols, particularly in the wake of information developed by the FBI from interviews that Atlanta -- a major air transportation hub -- also may have been a target of the hijackers.
Last night, federal authorities made the first arrest in the worldwide investigation of the terrorist attacks, a government official said.
The suspect is believed to have information highly relevant to the investigation and is a high flight risk, said the official, speaking on the condition of anonymity. The Justice Department said the warrant identified the suspect as a material witness.
None of the hijackers, who perished after steering the fuel-gorged jetliners into their targets, was identified by his country of origin, but all had Middle Eastern names.
Justice Department officials, in releasing the names of the 19 air pirates, also distributed yesterday to 18,000 law enforcement agencies a list of more than 100 persons whom authorities want to question concerning Tuesday's attacks.
"These are the names of individuals the FBI would like to talk to because we believe they may have information that might be helpful to the investigation," Attorney General John Ashcroft told reporters at a briefing.
More than 4,000 FBI agents have questioned hundreds of people and tracked down more than 36,000 investigative leads as the ongoing probe -- known as "Pentbomb" -- spread throughout the United States. There have been no arrests in connection with Tuesday's attacks.
Seven of the hijackers were licensed pilots, and several received flight training in this country. A dozen of them were listed as having lived in Florida, including six in Delray Beach. Three were said to have lived in California, and two hijackers with the same last name were listed as having lived in Fort Lee, N.J. -- Nawaq Alhamzi and Salem Alhamzi.
The 19 hijackers accused of hijacking the four planes involved in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon attacks were:
* Marwan Al-Shehhi, 23; Fayez Ahmed; Mohald Alshehri; Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, who were flying on United Airlines Flight 175, which destroyed the south tower of the World Trade Center.
* Waleed Alshehri, 25; Wail Alshehri, 28; Mohamed Atta, 33; Abdulaziz Alomari, 38; and Satam Al Suqami, 25, who were aboard American Airlines Flight 11, which destroyed the north tower of the World Trade Center.
* Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Hani Hanjour, who were on American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon
* Ahmed Alhaznawi, 20, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrahi and Saeed Alghamdi, 40, who were on United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania.
Mohamed Atta is believed to have been at the controls of American Airlines Flight 11, which took off from Logan International Airport in Boston and crashed into the World Trade Center's north tower at 8:45 a.m. Listing addresses in Hollywood and Coral Springs, Fla., he is believed to have taken flight training at Huffman Aviation in Venice, Fla.
Marwan Al-Shehhi also is believed to have received flight training at Huffman Aviation and at SimCenter Inc. in Opa-Locka, Fla. He was aboard United Airlines Flight 175, which crashed into the World Trade Center's south tower at 9:05 a.m. Authorities believe he may have been at the controls of the huge jetliner when it crashed.
Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi have been named by German authorities as members of an Islamic fundamentalist group that planned attacks on U.S. targets. German police have said the two men were from the United Arab Emirates.
Waleed Alshehri lived in Daytona Beach, Fla., and obtained a Social Security card in 1994. He also had a Florida driver's license, which expired in January, and a commercial pilot's license -- rated for both single and multi-engine aircraft. Authorities suspect he may have been the backup to Mohamed Atta on board American Airlines Flight 11.
Hani Hanjour received his commercial pilot's license in 1999, according to Federal Aviation Administration records, and was aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon at 9:39 a.m. He is believed to have lived in Phoenix and San Diego, but he listed a post office box in Saudi Arabia as his address.
Abdulaziz Alomari lived in Vero Beach, Fla., with his wife and four children in a $1,400-a-month town house. He was rated as a private pilot and flight engineer, listing his address as Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, according to FAA records. He was aboard American Airlines Flight 11 and was employed by Saudi Flight Ops, which handles maintenance for Saudi Airlines at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York.
Wail Alshehri is said to have lived in Hollywood, Fla., and Newton, Mass.
Ziad Jarrahi, who was on board United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Stony Creek Township, Pa., at 10:10 a.m. is believed to have had a pilot's license from Hamburg, Germany, according to FAA records.
Previously, Justice Department officials, including Attorney General John Ashcroft, said there were 18 known hijackers on the four planes. A new name was added Thursday after it was learned that there were five -- not four -- hijackers on American Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon.
The FBI asked that anyone who has any information about the hijackers call 866/483-5137.
Meanwhile, nine travelers of Middle Eastern descent who were detained Thursday by police and FBI agents at two New York airports were cleared of any connection with the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. One man remained in custody while authorities checked his credentials, which included what police said was a fake pilot's license.
The FBI's massive manhunt for those who provided logistical support for the hijackers, including credit cards, cash, lodging and transportation, continued yesterday throughout the country. A force of 4,000 agents is conducting numerous interviews, serving more than 30 search warrants and hundreds of subpoenas in several states and checking what Mr. Ashcroft has called "thousands of thousands of leads."
Agents have seized hundreds of pieces of evidence, including computers and what FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III described as "other documentary information that we are following up on."
In Minnesota, the possibility emerged that the FBI knew before Tuesday's attack of at least one Arab man seeking the type of flight training the hijackers received. Authorities confirmed yesterday that the FBI detained an Arab man in Minnesota a few weeks ago after he tried to seek flight simulator training for a large jetliner.
Those who hijacked the four airliners for Tuesday's attacks are believed to have received similar training.
Authorities said FBI officials in Minnesota had no reason to charge the man at the time and instead began deportation proceedings. Those proceedings were ongoing when the attacks took place Tuesday. He is being held but is not cooperating with the FBI.
Elsewhere, U.S. and Philippine authorities searched a Manila hotel in connection with the investigation. Philippine officials also questioned a Saudi Airlines pilot and refused entry to nine Malaysian men suspected of having undergone terrorist training.


Back to Nation/Politics

[SteveStromberg]

Security

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pilots call for weapons to foil hijackers

Terrorists bent on suicide mean 30-year rules are outdated

Special report: terrorism in the US

Keith Harper and Jeevan Vasagar
Saturday September 15, 2001
The Guardian

American pilots have been ordered by their leaders to adopt aggressive action to combat "suicidal hijackers", even to the extent of wielding an axe or using stun guns.
The Air Line Pilots' Association (Alpa) yesterday issued a new instruction to its members which, in effect, revokes rules that have operated in the industry for 30 years.

Steve Luckley, chairman of Alpa's national security committee, said it was pushing to fortify cockpit doors, and was likely to advocate some sort of weaponry in the cockpit, "firearms, stun guns, whatever is necessary".

Alpa's instruction says: "The pilot must be both mentally and physically prepared to take the life of a cockpit intruder" or the axe could be used against the crew.

The attitude of American pilots suggests that the rules, which were introduced by the Federal Aviation Administration after a wave of hijackings in the late 60s and early 70s, will have to be changed.

The flight manual of one big US carrier says: "If the hijacker enters the cockpit, remain calm and make every effort to cooperate with the hijacker." These rules made sense in an era when hijackers demanded money or held hostages for political purposes. But to many American pilots, they seem horribly outdated when terrorists bent on suicide want to use a passenger jet as a guided bomb.

Mr Luckey said: "It is no longer applicable in terms of the new threat. Now if we lose a cockpit, all is lost."

Airlines instruct their pilots not to reveal the rules, but much of the information is contained in public documents provided to pilots during training. This week's hijackers would almost certainly have been familiar with the manual urging cooperation.

The American authorities will also face increasing demands for a strengthening of cockpit doors.

During the past few years, pilots have had to deal with drunk passengers who have kicked holes in the doors. By law they are designed to be broken relatively easily so that pilots can escape from the cockpit in an accident.

But now pilots see the doors as their last line of defence, and they say they must be toughened to protect flight crews. "We're advocating some retrofit stuff - bolts and whatever it'll take - to fortify that cockpit door," said Mr Luckey.

Duane Woerth, Alpa's president, said that pilots were not willing to wait years for changes. He is to meet the FAA as a matter of urgency to discuss the issue.

Modifications to airline cabins have been opposed in the past mainly by the airlines because the added weight would require more fuel and more costs for carriers.

Pilots also believe that new FAA guidelines to stop passengers from carrying knives "of any length" but permit "rounded blade butter knives and plastic knives for meal service" are inadequate.

Senior Israeli defence experts claimed yesterday that the stringent and sophisticated measures used by El Al, the country's national airline, might have frustrated this week's terrorist attacks in the US.

Each El Al flight carries an armed marshal, and its pilots are locked in a reinforced cabin. Passengers are required to answer a stream of questions before they can board.

Shlomo Gazir, a former Israeli intelligence chief, said: "By looking into the eyes of a person, you see whether he is anxious or is an innocent passenger. There is no 100 per cent in security, but at least you can make it very hard for the terrorists."

European transport ministers are to strengthen safety guidelines which could lead to cockpit doors being locked.

Stephen Byers, transport secretary, said after a meeting in Brussels yesterday: "All of our analysis and preparation have been based on the view that terrorists would want to preserve their own lives. Now we know that is not the case. The suicide pilot means that we have to review our security."

Air travel from Britain to the US reopened yesterday for the first time since Tuesday's terrorist attacks. An American Airlines flight left Heathrow for Chicagoat 11.47am.

But US airports have only reopened to American carriers operating non-stop international flights from high-security foreign airports. Airlines have warned passengers to allow for at least three hours of check-in time because of extra security measures.

Ten out of 21 scheduled American Airlines flights were due to leave the UK yesterday from Heathrow, Gatwick, Birmingham and Glasgow.

From early morning, anxious New Yorkers waited stoically in huge queues at Heathrow for the first flights home. One passenger summed up their mood when he said: "I don't care how long it takes. I just have to get home."

The government announced yesterday that its ban on low flying over central London would end at midnight on Saturday.

Special reports
Terrorism in the US
Afghanistan