suicide by police, should the lawyers and family profit?

TerryH · TerryH's Garage

The latest is this kid from Florida who paints his pellet gun to hide the fact it isn't a "real" gun and is killed by SWAT after he takes aim at them. Parents attorney is saying the parents told police it "probably wasn't a real gun". Typically the city settles for a few million to avoid a sympathetic jury, attorneys and court costs, and negative publicity. I'm finding it harder to accept this as I get older and crustier.

The kid told about a dozen friends he planned on ending his life. Think justice will be served?

aways · 01-14-2006, 08:14 PM

Justice was served...

HardDrive · 01-14-2006, 08:18 PM

I have no idea about 'justice'.

But I saw the pictures of the gun, and it sure as hell looked like a real Beretta to me.

The officer did what he was trained to do.

EDIT: How the f*ck do they have an attorney less than 24 hours after it happened? 5 bucks say he is some ambulance chasing a55hole seeking to cash in.

Joeaksa · 01-15-2006, 03:38 AM

Can we please put that fake gun in the hand of the ambulance chasing atty and call the cops? We have far too many of that type of atty's in this country and anything to get rid of a few...

svandamme · svandamme's Garage

if you gotta go , you gotta go
this guy wanted to go , just needed directions

the pooolice just pointed him in the right direction

if anything they should sue the company that makes lifelike Berreta looking pellet guns... those are just as illegal as the real thing in most of Europe... for a reason

fastpat · 01-15-2006, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TerryH
The latest is this kid from Florida who paints his pellet gun to hide the fact it isn't a "real" gun and is killed by SWAT after he takes aim at them. Parents attorney is saying the parents told police it "probably wasn't a real gun". Typically the city settles for a few million to avoid a sympathetic jury, attorneys and court costs, and negative publicity. I'm finding it harder to accept this as I get older and crustier.

The kid told about a dozen friends he planned on ending his life. Think justice will be served?

That's the price paid by the citizenry when they permit the militarization of the police, and the shoot first, talk later mentality that pervades the police today.

A cop friend of mine and I have talked at great length about the militarization of the police; he thinks it's just about the worst thing that has happened to police and policing in it's history in America.

Based on the facts I have acquired so far about this incident, the police should be charged with malfeasance at the least and manslaughter would be more appropriate.

Joeaksa · 06:46 AM

Oh shirley, now it gets worse, much much worse.

Evidently the Father and Brother of the kid told the cops and school people that the gun he had was a fake, not real. The kids friends grabbed the gun and felt that it was not real. Word was passed around that the gun was not real.

The cop shot him anyway... Well, now I take back my earlier post. The family needs a lawyer, and the police and city need to reach deep in their pockets. The police chief, if he told the cop, should resign and if the cop knew, needs to be removed from the force and charges filed immediately.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/14/teen.shot/index.html

Lawyer: Authorities were told student's gun was fake

Saturday, January 14, 2006; Posted: 9:10 p.m. EST (02:10 GMT)

Attorney says police were told gun was fake (6:55)

Classmate describes what led to Penley's shooting (1:33)

Student shot by SWAT member (1:54)

LONGWOOD, Florida (CNN) -- The father and brother of a teenager shot at school Friday while brandishing a pellet gun told authorities before an officer opened fire that Christopher Penley's gun was not real, the family's attorney said Saturday.

The eighth-grader is clinically brain dead and being kept on life support to harvest his organs, attorney Mark Nation said.

When Ralph Penley arrived at the school Friday to help police and school officials defuse the situation, he wasn't allowed inside, Nation said.

Nation said Ralph Penley was "angry" because he had spoken to police before he arrived at the school and told them Christopher did not have a real gun. Christopher's younger brother told school officials the same thing, Nation said.

Asked if the father blames police for his son's death, Nation said, "I'm not here to point a finger at anybody at this time."

Seminole County Sheriff Don Eslinger said one of his deputies shot Penley only after the boy threatened him with the gun, which had been painted so it would look more real.

One of Penley's classmates said he, too, thought the gun was real -- and that Penley was going to kill him -- until he grabbed the pistol and realized it was fake.

The ordeal began about 9:30 a.m. Friday at the 1,100-student Millwee Middle School in suburban Orlando, Florida.

Maurice Cotey and his classmates were about to take a test when two students noticed the gun in Penley's backpack. Cotey heard one of them say, "This kid has a gun."

"The teacher, she went to the phone and told the office, and then he, the kid, he went to the lights and turned them off" before pulling the weapon and showing it to the class, Cotey, 13, told Orlando's WKMG TV.

At first, Cotey thought the gun was fake, he said, but Penley "seemed so sure that it was a real gun, so it like scared me, kind of."

Everyone darted from the classroom except Cotey and a girl, he said. Penley looked at Cotey and said, "You stay." The girl ran out.

With his gun in Cotey's back, Penley told his classmate to get against the blackboard. Cotey began pleading.

"Please don't shoot me, please don't shoot me," Cotey recalled telling Penley, who ordered him into the closet.

As the two walked toward the closet door, Penley grabbed Cotey and turned him around, and Cotey seized the chance to try to wrest away the gun from his older classmate, he said.

"He started to point the gun at me, so I started to grab for it and he pulled it away," Cotey told WKMG. "And then I grabbed for it one more time 'cause he pointed it at me for like a little while, so I grabbed it and I twisted it and I pointed it at him."

It was then that Cotey knew for sure the gun was a fake.

"While I was twisting it, it started to come apart like a toy gun would, like a dollar-store type toy," he said.

Cotey pointed the gun toward Penley's legs, but Penley kicked him into the closet, the 13-year-old said.

Cotey was able to get out of the closet and run out of the classroom. Penley already had gone and was running from a school resource deputy and others who were chasing him, Eslinger said.

As he ran, Penley could be heard saying, "I'm going to kill myself or I'm going to die somehow," according to Eslinger. At one point, he held the gun to his neck, another time to his head.

Penley fled to an isolated alcove area and went into a restroom where he refused to speak with negotiators, the sheriff said.

Authorities pleaded with the boy inside the bathroom to put down his weapon, Eslinger said, but the boy refused.

"He refused to even comment. All he said was his first name. He did not drop the firearm," the sheriff said.

Finally, the boy came out of the bathroom and "raised the firearm in a tactical position and pointed it" at a SWAT team member, who "decided to use deadly force," Eslinger said.

The boy's motive was not immediately clear.

After the shooting, deputies discovered what Cotey had suspected -- the gun was phony. It was an airsoft pellet gun, and the normally brightly colored tip had been painted black to make it look more authentic, Eslinger said.

Such guns generally shoot plastic pellets or paintballs.

In a news conference after the shooting, authorities displayed the gun alongside a real 9 mm handgun. To the naked eye, there was little difference between them.

"It was a terrible situation," the sheriff told reporters.

TerryH · TerryH's Garage

Pellet guns have killed. Sometimes penetrating the heart. How many shots should the officer have taken? Muzzle velocities are very close to real weapons, but perhaps less so on pistols. They are not a toy as this article above would like everyone to think.

onewhippedpuppy · 01-15-2006, 07:35 AM

Seems like it would have been a better choice to use non-lethal force, like sandbags or tear gas. I can understand the cop using force when an unknown weapon is pointed at him, but it shouldn't have been deadly force if there was a valid doubt that the gun was real.

aways · 01-15-2006, 07:51 AM

I have no sympathy for the bastard. It's obvious to me that if he would have had access to a real gun instead of his pellet gun, there would have been several dead students at the school before he turned the gun on himself (haven't we seen this play out before?). Instead, he took pains to make the gun look real, so that he could get a cop to kill him. The result: a cop that may lose his job, and will have to live with this the rest of his life. If the little bastard wanted to off himself so badly, why couldn't he just find a nice high bridge to throw himself off of.

onewhippedpuppy · 01-15-2006, 07:54 AM

I don't pity the kid, he obviously got what he wanted. I do feel for the cop, and the city that will now have to pay out big bucks thanks to the ambulance chasing lawyer and our bleeding heart legal system.

DavidI · 01-15-2006, 08:14 AM

For those of you condemning the police's action, I say shame on you. When dealing with an armed person, I am going to do whatever it takes to stay alive. I don't care if my best friend, most trusted cop partner, or the boy's father tells me the gun is fake. Until I see it and inspect it myself, it is real. Shootings take place in fractions of seconds with very little time to think. I have a wife and children who I am responsible for. What if everyone was wrong and the gun turned out to be real? Now you would have a dead cop who was just doing his job.

Just this week, one of the cops in my department got into a shooting. He was sent to a call of a person armed with an assault rifle. When he arrived, he found the guy. The bad guy was armed with a Tec9 automatic style gun. The bad guy charged at the cop while pointing the gun at him. The bad guy was shot several times. After all was said and done, it turns out that the gun was a replica that the bad guy had painted to make it look real. The cop was pissed that the bad guy had done this and forced him to shoot him.

In the case of this boy, although I feel sorry for his family, he modified the gun to look real and took on the cops. It sucks for everyone involved, but the cop did nothing wrong.

Joeaksa · 01-15-2006, 08:39 AM

David,

Do not disagree with you but lets try this scenario. The police are called but on the way they are told that the gun is a fake one, not real. Do the rules change any? Do we just shoot on sight knowing that its a plastic weapon or is a Taser or other non-lethal means even entered into the mix?

You live and work in one of the most dangerous cities of the world and can understand your feelings. What your fellow cop did is understandable, but when the police are told that the supposed weapon is a plastic replica most intelligent people would ask why the ROE is not altered a bit.

JoeA

Flatbutt1 · 01-15-2006, 08:56 AM

To the LEO's on the board . . .is it not possible to shoot in order to disable rather than shoot to kill? Aren't there times when shoot to disable is appropriate?

Please note I have never worn a badge or walked into a dark alley to face the unknown so I respect what you do. This is an honest query not a criticism.

DavidI · 01-15-2006, 09:00 AM

Joe, I understand what you are saying, but unfortunately people lie to the police all the time. Parents lie to protect their children, girlfriends lie to protect their boyfriends, etc. How can I know when to believe someone and not to? Our lives, and your life, is not something to gamble away based on assumptions. What is the informant's knowledge base on what a real gun is? Many of the plastic resin type guns (such as Glock) do not feel like they are real guns.

I understand this particular incident sucks for everyone involved, however, it is a gamble that most are not willing to take.

In this case, the kid wanted took steps that ultimately led to his death. It is very unfortunate.

David

emcon5 · emcon5's Garage

I am not a big fan of the militarization of the police either, but SWAT teams do have their place, and a someone in a school with a gun is clearly such a situation.

Dad says he didn't have a real gun? How the hell would he know? How does he know the kid didn't get a gun somewhere else? Steal it out of the neighbor's nightstand? Suck cocks for cash until he had enough to buy a stolen gun from the crackhead that hangs out behind 7-11? Klebold and Harris's parents didn't know they had guns.

As to the other kid, it really comes down to how credible the police considered him. Even so, if you point a gun (even a fake gun) at a cop who is pointing a real gun at you, expect to be shot.

BTW, one of these is the "toy" the dead kid had, the other one is a real Beretta 92.

Tom

BGCarrera32 · 01-15-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidI
For those of you condemning the police's action, I say shame on you. When dealing with an armed person, I am going to do whatever it takes to stay alive. I don't care if my best friend, most trusted cop partner, or the boy's father tells me the gun is fake. Until I see it and inspect it myself, it is real. Shootings take place in fractions of seconds with very little time to think. I have a wife and children who I am responsible for. What if everyone was wrong and the gun turned out to be real? Now you would have a dead cop who was just doing his job.

Right on brother.

If the gun was fake and his father knew it they should have sent him in to drag his sorry rear out. Funny how everyone around this kid knew he had suicidal tendencies and it was left up to local LE *again* to deal with him as a last resort. Sad.

onewhippedpuppy · 01-15-2006, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidI
Joe, I understand what you are saying, but unfortunately people lie to the police all the time. Parents lie to protect their children, girlfriends lie to protect their boyfriends, etc. How can I know when to believe someone and not to? Our lives, and your life, is not something to gamble away based on assumptions. What is the informant's knowledge base on what a real gun is? Many of the plastic resin type guns (such as Glock) do not feel like they are real guns.

I understand this particular incident sucks for everyone involved, however, it is a gamble that most are not willing to take.

In this case, the kid wanted took steps that ultimately led to his death. It is very unfortunate.

David

You make a very good point, what father will show up yelling "it's real, shoot my son"?

makaio · 01-15-2006, 09:43 AM

It's a shame someone lost their life, but the officer did what he was trained and had to do. He acted on instinct, and made the decision he had to, to ensure his return home at the end of the day.

It's a shame more of society can't do ride alongs with police officers and firefighters when the shiit is hitting the fan. A lot of them would cry for their mom and then understand why they get paid slightly more than a garbage man.

Moses · 01-15-2006, 09:46 AM

Respectfully, y'all are nuts!

Anyone who aims a weapon, real or fake at a police officer needs to be dispatched quickly. I would include throwing rocks, bottles or swinging bats.

I feel no driving compulsion to share this planet with hostile, aggressive a-holes with poor judgement and no impulse control. But he had a bad family life and was misunderstood? Too bad. Adios.