A quote from the Decware site mentioned above...

Since the magic is in the interpretation of the recording, I'll say it again, extreme accuracy and specs will all but ensure that you never hear it. A good MC cartridge is a mechanical analogue device. For this reason, CD's even in the new high res formats are not likely to have the same magic. So if you're waiting to see at the expense of owning a good vinyl setup, don't wait. You'll notice lately that in the high end of DACs we now have jitter devices, harmonic recovery devices, and dozens of other gizmo's that push a DAC to a higher level of fidelity (when they work). It's pretty obvious to me that all of these have one thing in common, and that is to attempt to recapture some of the interpretive magic of a good cartridge.

Well said, and the way it should be.:)

I worked as developer of analog electronics many jobs ago and from time to time I still fiddle with good stuff...being die-hard DIY guy and all :)

This is my amp. Nothing too fancy, four matched EL34L's, four ECC81's, fully stabilized anode feed and two hand-winded transformers. Throw in few good polipropylen caps and it actually sounds pretty good.

I feed it to a pair of Genesis two-element loduspeakers until I find a pair of not-to-expensive electrostatic speakers.

One day I'll get myself together and try to fullfill my old dream: full tube OTL amplifier.

Pic of little stoogie:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1137701891.jpg

I feed it with 70's vintage hi-end Philips pre-amp and analog output from my sound-card actually...I'm not too anal about surce of sound. MP3's in 256kb/s are fine.

High End is Dying
 

As I said in the post above, I am in the industry. I have worked primarily at the national distributor level – both Canada & US, so I sell to the stores that sell to you. As with most careers, my business card has changed numerous times but after 30 years, I’m truly good for nothing else. I have sold a lot of high end product in the past; the good, the bad (not too much thankfully - I was always non-Japanese upper-end) & the ugly (I could tell you stories . . .).

There are the creds, now back to my topic. Over the past 20 years, there has been a gradual shrinking of the high end audio market. Why?

1. CD.

When CD players hit, consumers went on a spending spree. They bought the “Perfect Forever” Sony dribble & also bought amps & speakers & MIT cable etc etc fueling a HiFi boom that lasted until the 90s. But CD also eliminated the biggest need for a specialist: the turntable setup. Anybody could setup a CD player, but only a specialist could do a Hadcock with a Koetsu Black on an Oracle. With the virtual disappearance of the turntable (except as a fringe device) so disappeared the need for a hi-fi specialist with his bag of tricks (mixed with a heavy dose of fairy dust). Now you could buy it at a box store for 40% off. Why pay a specialist MSRP?

2. Video.

Then the populace was sold home theater. Big-$ss TVs or projectors. And that’s where the $s were spent, with only a piddling amount left for 5 speakers – no longer just 2. And 5 channel amps with hundreds of buttons & settings to screw up the sound with. And the wife had a thing or 2 to say about those boxes for the first time. HiFi used to be guy stuff. Video changed that. We all brought it home with the promise: Sure it’s big & ugly, but the whole family can use it! But we opened the door & now style is often the primary buying criteria. What ever happened to how it sounds?

3. Internet.

Internet shopping is fun, easy & you sure save dollars. Right out of your local retailer’s pocket. Sure, go to his store & waste his time auditioning stuff. Then go home & buy it for 30% off from a guy with a website in Buttplug, New Jersey (no offense meant to NJ, but they do congregate there). Soon that hifi store on the corner will go away or he’ll change into a dealer selling nothing but #4 below. But I bet you can still get a good demo at Best Buy . . . Oh & let’s not forget about downloading & MP3s etc. It’s simultaneously killing the media purchases & lowering the quality level in one fell swoop.

4. Custom

Not really high end, but it sucks high end dollars. Control & lighting consume such a large part of the budget that all you’re left with is Chinese-made cheapo in wall speakers driven by 15wpc class D keypad amps.

So, we killed the store, we killed the music, we killed the media, but we can turn it on or off from any room in the house!

----- End of Rant -----

Ian

Ian, any time you want a holiday in the Dordogne, France just send me a pm.

Great post.

Ian, Excellent summary...I agree.


You guys are realy into this stuff. I thought I was hot stuff when I bought Polk SDAs.

Anyway, Matteo, you may be able to repair your CD unit very easily. Remove the fasteners that secure the cover. After 40 minutes and when the unit exhibits performance problems, remove the cover and shoot each component with a bit of Freeze spray (Radio Shack). Chances are you'll identify the cause of your problem. Likely a leaking capacitor.

Ha, ha. I was actually thinking about a week in Bordeaux & the Dordogne on my next trip to Focal in Saint-Etienne . . . haven't been to France in several years . . . I'm overdue . . .

Ian

Re: High End is Dying
 

Imcarthur, you are in Toronto?

How often do you come across Wilson Benesch ACT-0.5 tone arm? I plan to build my own version of a teres turntable someday - will build my own plinth. The local high-end store said bring it in for a listen when I get it done - have not even started yet.

http://image.<a href="http://www.rak...01424.jpeg</a>

I read the whole article and it is very very interesting.
I must say that I agree in principle with the theory behind it....
The sound wave is deconstructed and then re-build in a DAC. Even the most sophisticated computer will alter the original wave...

But in reality we are moving away from analogue even at the source...
Keyboards are used instead of pianos, electronic drums, sax etc...

We can debate that you canno call this music anymore... which is fine... but what is the best way for me to play this stuff back?

I am being devil's advocate here... don't get me wrong... but we may be stuck in the 80s (like with our cars)...

Re: Re: High End is Dying
 

A tonearm? Isn't that one of those funny pivoted thingies that you attached a cartridge to? I see them in the strange audio museums sprinkled sparsely around the country. As for the Benesch - I don't know it specifically. I stopped being interested in tonearms after the SME V & IV (great, great arms that I made a lot of silly money with in the late 80s).

(For those not in the know, cartridges are antique electromagnetic archival extraction devices used to hover in vinyl grooves on things called records & that were often made by some Swiss scientist who also makes Samurai swords while singing opera).

Yes. Toronto - out of a home office. But I cover NC, SC, TN, GA, AL & FL only now. Every few years I carve off some territory & give it to our junior guys. Just gave up TX, OK, AR, LA & MS.

Ian

Goran... that is a beautiful amp... I have the skill but not the time/space/money to do a DIY tube amp.

Ian... you are right on, I read a few HiFi magazines and they are saying the same exact thing.

I am hoping the HiFi industry has a revival

After 15 years in Helo's, one thing is clear...I do not need this type of equipment. My audiologist tells me during my retirement phys.
Forget about CD and other hi-end audio equipment..your hearing is 8-track.
Rika

This conversation really intrigues me because I have recently become interested in tube sets.

I won't lie to you...I like the way the look. I'm not too keen on electronics that look like, well, black box electronics. The"appliance" look does nada for me. I liek the fact that tube sets wear their functioning parts on the outside...kinda like motorcycles.:D

I'd rather have something that is completely invisible, or something which draws the eye because it is unusual. Or a combination of both. After reading this thread, one of the things that occurs to me is combining, say, an Apple mini with a tube set.

The Apple would be hidden out of way and the tube amp woulb be all that is visible of the stereo.

Anyone try anything like this or know of any systems which combine this artistic/unobtrusive duality?

However, I'll be the first to confess that all of this is moot as there is no way I can scrape the dinero for a tube set right now.

If you play only CD's why not get a used intergrated tube amp? I'm sure you could find something for as little as $300.

If you want real power - lets say 100 watts and spin vinyl you can do the tube preamp with phono and tube amp for about $1,000 each (that's exactly what I did).

Link:
http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?ampstube&1&ctg&st1

$575 Intergrated Sample:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1142708672
http://www.av123.com/images_dynamic/processors_26.jpg
http://www.ecoustics.com/secrets/volume_12_3/onix-xcd-88-cd-player-sp3-amplifier-reference-1-speakers-9-2005.html
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-sp3-side.jpg

So it's only 38 watts, most people never use more than the first watt anyway. ;)

Check this out:

http://tubeamp.bravehost.com/MP-5.htm

Interesting link! I like the idea of a used set.

The MP5 is interesting, looks like a small mono-bloc set.

There are also some inexpensive new chinese units on ebay....but I question their quality, features...well, really I question just about everything about them. I realize some Chinese units like Shanling are quite good, but the ebay units don't seem to be in that league.

Dared has some of the hottest industrial design on a budget stuff out there. I'd be pretty careful with most of this east Asia/Chinese stuff. Then again it's so cheep if it fails you can always buy another.:cool:

If you want American made there is the affordible Jolida line up. Cary has the affordible line called Audio Electronic Supply.


http://www.jolida.com/

http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com/

Back to what I was saying.... I had to cut my post short because my Boss showed up and wanted me to work, the nerve of some people!...

Anyway, I hoping that at some point we will see a techno backlash in audio much like the retro craze in the automobile industry.

My biggest problem with the modern audio industry is the prices, what was the cost of a good McIntosh setup with Klipshorns(sp?)back in the seventies? Now a good amp alone can set you back five figures!

The cost of most electronics compared to the 70's has gone down a lot .

The main issue is that home theater requires more amps and speakers.

I have H.T. and a seperate 2-channel system so I've probably tripled my cost.

you guys gave me some new cheap-ish tubes to check out. thanks!

i've been enjoying a Jolida 202A for several years now, and still wondering what, if anything, could beat it in bang-for-the-buck. i still haven't reached the tube upgrade stage but that will come shortly.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0203/jolida202a.htm

http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd202a.shtml

http://www.ecoustics.com/avrev/jolida/

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/124...202abig5pp.jpg

if you don't mind a used amp (the online tube community is not unlike pelican) you could go w/ a Conrad Jonhnson CAV 50. Commonly known as a C-J, they have been the gold std. of the market. At $2500 it wasn't cheap, but you could easily find amps for double and triple that. Since by now it's an older model, I'm sure there are some floating around at $1000.

Pic of beautiful-sounding DIY OTL power amp built by Bernt Jansson. Many neat details. Tubes are PL509's and heat is wired in series and powered directly from mains. Separate & stabilized anode voltage.

You would need cubic dollars to actually buy someting like this. I think only Graaf does big OTL's nowadays. One nice day I'll try to pull it off on my own.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1137802363.jpg

VaSteve:

Yes, definitely you sit in one place and don't move on these systems. You need to be in the "sweet spot" to get the full effect of good 2 channel audio.

The sweet spot is the exact center point between the left and right speakers at least 5 to 10 feet away (can be much more in larger rooms) from the front line of the two speakers.

Getting into the sweet spot allows the speakers to "image" well. This gives you a very nice, wide sound stage. You'll notice instruments and/or vocals will pop out in the center of the image and other instruments/voices/etc. will be panned more left or more right. The lead vocals will sit nicely in the middle. High hat will be off to the left, kick drum dead center hitting you nicely, cymbals panned (yes, I'm a drummer - sorry), guitar(s) panned nicely off to the right or left or both, harmony vocals dispersed all over the place, etc. etc. A good set up in a nice room gets W I D E and really fun to listen to.

Definitely try a nice system in a nice room in the sweet spot. If you like good audio, you'll be hooked and I bet you'll be able to sit still for awhile behind a nice LP or decent CD.

Love this 2 channel thread...

Jay
90 964

This is funny! Most of you are probably too young to have ever seen pics of really antique radios, the stuff made in the early 20th century...tubes exposed, finely finished wood cabinet, dials & switches. The similarity is incredible! (edit)...I remember saving up paper route money so I could buy a portable (NO TUBES!) radio for $40...the transistor had just arrived upon the mass market. I suppose all of this is proof that the more things change, the more they remain the same...

Bingo.

I'm soooo sick of these compressed MP3 formats and all this other junk out there today that compromises audio. Yeah, it's all on the computer at your fingertips, but that's just not the point of true (i.e. analog) audio.

This thread is getting me pumped up. I'm listening to vinyl right now in my office as I type... I'm glad you guys get the point too. LP or cassette on 2 speakers.

I've had people listen to my cheesy system (1976 McIntosh MC250 running two Paradigm 7se's (circa 1989) with my '84 Integra 2070 cassette deck) swear they were listening to a really good CD. LP and cassette are so much more warm (if you have a good turntable and an exceptional cassette deck).

Of course I have decent enough CD player, but on a lot of disc, you can really hear the difference between formats. CD looses a ton of warmth on many recordings.

The only problem is the degradation of these formats due to playback or time...

Jay
90 964

All of my old LP vinyl seems to suffer from some degradation of sound quality. Could this be because they were played, over and over, on an automatic $99.95 record changing "stereo" made by G.E.? Or, could it have been the doobie ashes and the beer that got dropped on the vinyl whenever the stack of records was flipped over on the changer? Any expert opinions on how I can restore these LP's to their once (I'm sure, tho I can't really remember) pristine and warm sound?

Wash them, but not in the bath!
A friend uses a super dooper vinyl wash special thingy - must get one.
I played a couple of Beatle ones today, never mind the cracles and pops - clarity and crispness of sound were enough.
Buy whole collections off ebay - I got 255 lps of heavy rock for 250 pounds - all in amazing condition.

I purchased (about 10 years ago) a record cleaning machine (vaccum) from Audio Advisor (Record Doctor) for $169 (now $199), a must for you record show goers.

I have an "Orbatrac", but I really don't see what the big deal is - works, nothing to rave about.

The big secret in great record cleaning is steam (must be used with either Orbatrac or record cleaning machine).

I have a portable travel sized steam cleaner (from the wife) which works wonders. Avoid the lables. My pint sized unit does not get very hot - could never burn you, and you have to really work it to get it to warp the record (flattens out on it's own once on the cleaning machine).

My current method on a newly purchased worn record or one of my oldest roughest samples is to clean in on the Record Doctor cleaning machine. Then steam clean it, put it on the Record Doctor machine and clean again (full fliuids and brush - typical). If this just does not do the trick, I'll pull out the Orbatrac.

Once upon a time; I steamed cleaned first, and went straight to the Orbatrac before going to the Record Cleaning Machine - wow you could really see all the crud then on the Orbatrac pads..

Once cleaned, I don't clean again for at least a year, but will use my Zerostat gun and carbon fiber brush to keep the record clean.

Also important to keep the needle clean, turn down the volume and use the "LAST" stylus cleaner and application brush.

I'm also a big fan of the Cardas degausing record and tube phone sections, somehow they work together to relax the whole playback system.

Some people claim to get good results with CD's using record treatment tools. They used the Zerostat gun on CD's, and play the Cardas record to tune-in or warm up the entire playback chain.

Remember, nothing cleans like STEAM .

If you want a theory to go along with this here is one: Every time you play a record the contact point of the stylus (just for an instant) heats up and melts the vinyl (cools back down in a micro second as well). The only way to get the dirt out is to losen it up with heat or warm water.

There is some evidence that mold is the real problem - even if you cannot see or smell it. Ever hear of "old moldy records"? There are now bio-cleaners designed to eat the mold but not the vinyl. The mold may grow over the dust particles making a big microscopic mess for your stylus to magnify.

OK, guys

For the exerts out there, is there any quality or sound difference between a classic tube amp like Macintosh or any of the more recent but similarly priced tube amps?

Your thoughts?

Dazed and Confused
 

And I thought it was just Jimi Hendrix playing....

I've been a Mac freak since the middle 60s....I have been watching Mac sales on the Bay...and have been comtemplating whether to pursue a Mac tube amp such as the MC 275 or MC2101...or go with one of the big boys live an MC 500 or MC 600 0r MC 1000.

So many variables, experts always default to what ever works in your system to your ears rule of thumb. The old stuff can be pretty good, just like an old Porsche. Best thing to do is find a high-end store near you that allows home auditions. Most hi-end stores take trade-in's or sell used stuff on consignment. For me, I've once dragged in all of my electronic equipment (amp, preamp and CD player) into the store and they let me hook it up to the speakers. Mind you half the sound you hear is reflected sound (room acoustics) but it sold me on my Martin Logans.

Tabs I think the MC 275 (75 watts) can only have be had used for about $5,000, the MC2101 (100 or 150 watts) new for about $10,000. I think I read that there is MC 275 reissue part-2 which means more new machines - but not 100% positive about that, would expect these to be in between ($7,500). Apples and oranges, sometimes you pay for a name - but will keep it's resale and remain servicable..

Check out the prices on the Bay....

I would if I were interested - what are they going for?

Once again let me stress that home audition of equipment is the way to go. However, if you are going to purchase a "classic" McIntosh or Conrad Johnson off e-bay, I suppose you could flip it back on to the market at no loss if it did not make you happy. This is a dark path to go down, can you afford another expensive hobby?

Very true. I know of one of my customer's customers who has identical systems in all 3 of his residences. Stereo only - DCS front end (the big $ one), Lamm amps & Grande Utopia BEs. I arranged the delivery of the GUs. Probably $200K per system . . .

At the other end of the scale, $2K can get a nice music-only system if you choose carefully. Listen & believe your ears & ignor the hype - easier said than done.

Ian