Another welder question

[widebody911]

I'm looking at getting a new welder. I have a project I'm contemplating which will require me to weld 1/4" or better steel, and my 110v Lincoln isn't really up to the task.

I've done some tire kicking, and I think I want to get a Millermatic 210. One of the features that have me leaning this way is that it has a separate plug-in for an optional spool gun. The comparable Lincoln model doesn't. Buying it locally (my preference) would be ~$1500 or so by the time I get a tank, flux capacitor, etc.

Another option would be the Millermatic DVI, which is a similar unit but is dual voltage (110/220).

Thoughts?

Oh, and another welding question: I read somewhere that you can weld thicker materials with a 110v welder, but the trick was to pre-heat the metal with a torch first. Any truth to that?

[TimT]

All material to be welded should be preheated to some extent. However preheating will not allow you to weld thicker material.

Also you can weld steel thicker than 1/4" with a 110v MIG. You just have to make more passes. The higher powered welders allow you to make larger beads. So if you wanted to weld 1/2 plates together, you may have to weld 12 passes or so with the 110v. With a more powerful unit you may make the same weldment in only 6 passes.

[fuelie600]

Can you bevel the edges to form a "V" between the pieces. Then run 3-4 beads with the first one at the bottom of the "V" and alternate sides on the next and so on? I took a welding class a few years back and the instructor had us do this on thick metal. (not with 110v though.)

not sure about the torch.

[BGCarrera32]

You're right on with a Millermatic 210 or even better (ca-ching), the 251. I would opt for one with the spool gun plug, and buy that later if you plan to build something large out of aluminum. If you search eBay you'll find that several welding shops sell Miller direct with free shipping, it will get dropped to your house and you'll escape the sales tax. That's what I did when I bought my Miller TIG; after some checking Miller just drop ships them freight carrier right from the factory. At the time I requested a semi with a lift since I obviously don't have a dock, and they covered that as part of their free shipping. The guy rolled it off the truck and into my garage right on a pallet...

Originally posted by TimT
All material to be welded should be preheated to some extent.

Not totally necessary; the more important thing is to get your material at room temp (i.e. don't weld 30 degree F metal) for most projects. Unless you are preheating in a large oven with temperature control and welding an aerospace frame, you have almost no temp control heating with something like an oxy-ace torch, and the whole wax temp crayon thing is a PITA. Heat treating with a torch post welding is more b.s..

Originally posted by TimT
Also you can weld steel thicker than 1/4" with a 110v MIG. You just have to make more passes. The higher powered welders allow you to make larger beads.

Errrrr...sort of. Higher amperage welders allow deeper penetration into the material itself. You don't want to stitch weld a weld-bead to a weld bead-to weld bead-to weld bead (get the hint?). What you are doing is laying bead atop bead, and never really getting into the material to a decent depth. Not only is it not the soundest way to go, I'll laugh when I see it.

Make sure when you get the first spool of wire with your machine that if plan to do 1/4" plus material right away get .040" wire of larger, which will help with the correct bead size in relation to the heat setting. Get extra tips, etc. too.

[dhoward]

$120 stick welder for the heavy stuff. MIG for light weight metal and pretty beads...

[TimT]

Not totally necessary; the more important thing is to get your material at room temp

That is not true, Ive copied an excerpt from an AWS code that I happen to have here at home, most of my tech library is at my office.

Please note the instances where "shall" and "preheat" are used.. Also take note of the paragraph where field welding is mentioned, I would go out on a limb and say most people welding at home are doing so in field conditions, and hence they should apply what most codes require more vigorously.

Errrrr...sort of. Higher amperage welders allow deeper penetration into the material itself. You don't want to stitch weld a weld-bead to a weld bead-to weld bead-to weld bead (get the hint?). What you are doing is laying bead atop bead, and never really getting into the material to a decent depth. Not only is it not the soundest way to go, I'll laugh when I see it.

OK laugh.. Ill have to post some scans of a few PQRs and WPS that show multiple passes.. say joining 1.5" material to 1" material. Im sure you know that many weldments are made up by multiple passes ... Joint preparation, preheat, interpass temp, and post heat are all critical.

One reason a hobby welder ie a 110v Lincoln/Hobart/Miller wont be used for heavy weldments is economics.. It would take many more passes @ 1/8 than a more powerful machine depositing passes @ 5/16

Should I also show you that the WPS shows 24 volts specified forgot the amperage.. have to pull out the WPS.. I also have radiographs, and ultrasound reports of these welds..

Preheating is also a good practice when welding non-ferrous metals..In fact I can pull a bunch of codes that say so....


Hobby welders should strive to try and meet the requirements of the AWS/API/ASME code... it will do them nothing but good..

You don't want to stitch weld a weld-bead to a weld bead-to weld bead-to weld bead (get the hint?).

Do you get the hint?...

I dumbed down my original post... because yes you can weld over 1/4 in with a 110v at home MIG.. it will take more time but you can do

If you forsee doing lots of greater than 3/8 welding in the future maybe upgrade your equipment

[BGCarrera32]

Do you actually get out weld on occasion? The point is, who at home doing the usual array of welding projects is going to pull out a torch and preheat a weld joint to 250F, stitch it, heat the next one, keep moving... if they can actually even control it to 250F, maintain uniform temp across the whole weldment so it doesn't warp... You can pull codes and pictures until you're blue in the face; I'd prefer thorough penetration of the metals to make a proper structurally sound weld joint. I give you the exception in the 3/4" thick + thicknesses you refer to, but most machines like the 251 are more than up to the task for 1/2".

While you're at it, pull up the section on how to do a proper scratch test so we make sure we have not exceeded Rockwell C27.

Where we get in trouble here is the guy thinking he can successfully make multiple passes with a 110 mig when welding the tounge of his car trailer to the main frame of it and that gets scary when its done in a fashion where the bead never gets hot enough and the weld is most likely cold, because the box doesn't have the nads to begin with.

[TimT]

Do you actually get out weld on occasion?

Actually yes... I do weld... enough to maintain my certs... actually Id rather just weld than manage jobs, less headaches..

What led to my original post was that Thom said he had "a project".. that required welding over 1/4"..if its a once a year thing use the existing welder.... if your going to do it every day... buy a more powerful machine..

I think an at home welder should strive to meet the minimum of the applicable codes... what can be wrong with that?

[Joeaksa]

Thom,

I stop by my local welding shop from time to time. They almost always have a Miller unit that is used on display, just to show people how easy it is to weld. After a few months they sell the display unit, usually at a very good discount.

You might try checking around a few shops locally to see if they do this. You simply cannot go wrong with a Miller, especially if you get a good deal. They make welding so much easier and last forever when treated right.

Joe A

[widebody911]

I'm aware of the limitations of a 110v welder. I have a friend who is a 'semi pro' welder. Welding isn't his day job, but he does a lot of side work doing offroad frames, roll cages, custom Al fuel cells, etc. He suggested years ago that I upgrade.

When I built my shop, I brought in 220v just to run a bigger welder.

I'll probably keep the smaller welder because it's very handy for 98% of the stuff I do, and if I need to, I can throw it into the back of the bus and work somewhere else. The Millermatic... not so much.

I really like the spool gun setup on the 210 and 251, paticularly since I have the Lincoln Al setup for my 110v welder. I can weld aluminum with it, but I have to be desperate. The 251 is about $600 more; I could get the spool gun for that

[Joeaksa]

Get the best you can afford, then some. You will thank yourself in the long run.

[Tim Hancock]

Thom, I have a Miller Econotig which also comes with a "stick" welder torch. I weld almost everything with my tig (even though I have a 110 mig collecting dust). When I have to do any large scale heavier welding (mower or tractor repair), I just use the stick welding feature of the Econotig.

Once you have a tig and learn how to use it, it is hard to go back to mig (at least for home hobby type welds that you want perfect). The last time I priced Econotigs they were about $1500. Lincoln and Hobart offer similar AC/DC HIGH FREQ air cooled units also (you need this type if you are going to weld steel AND aluminum).

Mig welders as you know are easy to use, but tig is capable of much more precision and control once you learn how to use it.

[vlocci]

Tom,

I'm about to throw a wrench in the works....

I own a 210, and have done a bunch of welding with it in the past. It is a nice machine, and the prospect of adding a spoolgun is nice, but in the end I always walk back to the Tig for 99% of my projects. I'm a big fan of the control, the quality, and the ability to do all sorts of materials with little or no time spent switching back and forth. Tig is not difficult, and my Tig welds look nicer than what I can produce with the Mig most days of the week.

This said, when you factor in the price of the 210, and a spool gun for Al, you pretty much in the price range of a Miller syncrowave 200 ( a TIG/ stick machine). In my book, this is a much nicer machine with a LOT of options for the future. For the really thick stuff pull out the stinger and rod and Stick weld it together. A syncrowave should last for a long time before you even think about upgrading.

Also think about the online retailers. The tax savings is nice, the price often better than the local dealer, and they often ship for free. I tried to support my local dealer when buying but he could not come close on price.

Vin

[widebody911]

Most of what I do with the welder is VW rust/collision repair. I've done some larger projects (ie, built a couple of gates) and made-do with the 110v. It sounds like the TIG would be better for the little stuff, but that it won't handle the heavy stuff I want to do, so I'm back to square one. Or will the SynchroWave handle the stick welding for the larger stuff?

Oh, and for the record: I know nothing about TIG.

[Tim Hancock]

Thom, I dont know details on the square wave, but the "stick" feature of my econotig will weld heavy stuff (even in tig mode it will weld fairly thick stuff, but being aircooled, it will get too hot to hold if tig welding at high amperage for long continuous periods). I have welded 1/4" steel many times in tig mode without issue as long as it is just a couple inch long stitches at a time.

There are some sweet small compact wave tig welders on the market today at reasonable prices, but they do not work for aluminum. The ones I am talking about will weld nearly paper thin steel and stainless steel superbly, but they do not have the AC high frequency mode for aluminum FWIW.

I guess what I am saying is that if the majority of your welding is 1/4" or less, the tig will do it all with excellant weld quality yet still allow you
to occasionally weld small amounts of heavy stuff in tig mode or large quantities of heavy stuff in stick mode.

[vlocci]

Tom,

Jumping to a Tig machine does not mean that you loose capacity. I'm sure google can sort out the details between Mig and Tig for you. A quick summary:

Mig: the welding wire feeds off a spool, through the tip of the torch and is deposited on the waterial your welding. Mig is the "hot melt glue gun" of the welding world.

Tig: the torch is used solely to melt the material your welding, you feed filler in manually using your other hand. Things like amperage are controlled by you on the fly using a foot pedal or a slider on the torch. The advantages are much greater control of your weld, better control of the heat affected zone around the weld, etc etc.


Jumping to a tig machine such as the 200 allows you much greater control of welds on thin and thick materials. I can jump from butt welding razor blades to butt welding 1/2 plate in seconds, and have total control of the welds the entire time. Tig on aluminum is great; resulting in nice "roll of dimes" looking welds. I've never been able to produce these kinds of welds using Mig on Aluminum. With tig you can do some exotic materials like Ti, copper, etc, which are not easily done with mig.

Stick is typically also found on all TIG machines. It is really simply welding, using a coated electrode. Stick is what you typically see used in large construction like skyscrapers and bridges. I like Stick for welding heavy steel together that might not have the best surface finish or environment. You can typically stick weld in windier conditions, and can opten get great weld quality right through rust paint etc., without spending a ton of time on surface prep.

I suggest heading to the local weld supplier and picking their brain a bit. I'm a fan of Tig for a variety of reasons, one being it allows you to grow and do a ton of different jobs well. With mig it is a little tougher to get this versatility.

Vin