Including the random roadside attacks, or do you mean directly by US forces? You should have used a bigger number, it has a greater impact on the reader. Like this: "...more than 1.2 million innocent civilians have been murdered by the 101st and 82nd Airborne combined." That makes people say "Oh no, we have to do something about it."

BTW, here's some math on Saddam's KIA list:

For over 20 years, the greatest threat to Iraqis has been Saddam Hussein's regime -- he has killed, tortured, raped and terrorized the Iraqi people and his neighbors for over two decades.

When Iraq is free, past crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Iraqis, will be accounted for, in a post-conflict Iraqi-led process. The United States, members of the coalition and international community will work with the Iraqi people to build a strong and credible judicial process to address these abuses.

Under Saddam's regime many hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result of his actions - the vast majority of them Muslims.

According to a 2001 Amnesty International report, "victims of torture in Iraq are subjected to a wide range of forms of torture, including the gouging out of eyes, severe beatings and electric shocks... some victims have died as a result and many have been left with permanent physical and psychological damage."

Saddam has had approximately 40 of his own relatives murdered.

Allegations of prostitution used to intimidate opponents of the regime, have been used by the regime to justify the barbaric beheading of women.

Documented chemical attacks by the regime, from 1983 to 1988, resulted in some 30,000 Iraqi and Iranian deaths.

Human Rights Watch estimates that Saddam's 1987-1988 campaign of terror against the Kurds killed at least 50,000 and possibly as many as 100,000 Kurds. o The Iraqi regime used chemical agents to include mustard gas and nerve agents in attacks against at least 40 Kurdish villages between 1987-1988. The largest was the attack on Halabja which resulted in approximately 5,000 deaths. o 2,000 Kurdish villages were destroyed during the campaign of terror.

Iraq's 13 million Shi'a Muslims, the majority of Iraq's population of approximately 22 million, face severe restrictions on their religious practice, including a ban on communal Friday prayer, and restriction on funeral processions.

According to Human Rights Watch, "senior Arab diplomats told the London-based Arabic daily newspaper al-Hayat in October [1991] that Iraqi leaders were privately acknowledging that 250,000 people were killed during the uprisings, with most of the casualties in the south." Refugees International reports that the "Oppressive government policies have led to the internal displacement of 900,000 Iraqis, primarily Kurds who have fled to the north to escape Saddam Hussein's Arabization campaigns (which involve forcing Kurds to renounce their Kurdish identity or lose their property) and Marsh Arabs, who fled the government's campaign to dry up the southern marshes for agricultural use. More than 200,000 Iraqis continue to live as refugees in Iran."

The U.S. Committee for Refugees, in 2002, estimated that nearly 100,000 Kurds, Assyrians and Turkomans had previously been expelled, by the regime, from the "central-government-controlled Kirkuk and surrounding districts in the oil-rich region bordering the Kurdish controlled north."

"Over the past five years, 400,000 Iraqi children under the age of five died of malnutrition and disease, preventively, but died because of the nature of the regime under which they are living." (Prime Minister Tony Blair, March 27, 2003) o Under the oil-for-food program, the international community sought to make available to the Iraqi people adequate supplies of food and medicine, but the regime blocked sufficient access for international workers to ensure proper distribution of these supplies. o Since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom, coalition forces have discovered military warehouses filled with food supplies meant for the Iraqi people that had been diverted by Iraqi military forces.

The Iraqi regime has repeatedly refused visits by human rights monitors. From 1992 until 2002, Saddam prevented the UN Special Rapporteur from visiting Iraq.

The UN Special Rapporteur's September 2001, report criticized the regime for "the sheer number of executions," the number of "extrajudicial executions on political grounds," and "the absence of a due process of the law."

Executions: Saddam Hussein's regime has carried out frequent summary executions, including: o 4,000 prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in 1984 o 3,000 prisoners at the Mahjar prison from 1993-1998 o 2,500 prisoners were executed between 1997-1999 in a "prison cleansing campaign" o 122 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/March 2000 o 23 political prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in October 2001 o At least 130 Iraqi women were beheaded between June 2000 and April 2001

Bingo!

I think Patsy should put on his apron and make us some sandwiches.

Here is a guy with absolute power, had daughters and wives raped in front of their family before the family was killed, palaces, booze, cigars. A lot of the insurgents are guys from his team, they don't seem shy about blowing up a school or a mosque, gotta be pretty taboo to burn a mosque, even if you are Sunni and it is a Shiite mosque, probably even worse than smokin' a cigar, would seem to me anyway. You seem to believe Saddam Hussein cared what anyone thought. As long as he was feared, it was all good. I keep thinking you have put the funniest thing up here you possibly could, and you keep right on surprising me, thanks again

You know that how, exactly?

Quote:

palaces, booze, cigars.

You mean like a wealthy politician; sorta' like George Bush and Ted Kennedy, like those guys.

Quote:

A lot of the insurgents are guys from his team,

They aren't insurgents. An insurgent is a person attempting to change a lawful government usually through guerilla warfare. Since Iraq was invaded by a ruthless enemy of the Iraqi people, there is no legitimate government in Iraq. These men are Iraqi Freedom Fighters defending their country from both the illegal occupiers and from a take over by Islamic Fundamentalists turned loose by the US government war crime.

Quote:

they don't seem shy about blowing up a school or a mosque, gotta be pretty taboo to burn a mosque, even if you are Sunni and it is a Shiite mosque, probably even worse than smokin' a cigar, would seem to me anyway.

We, that's you and me, do not know who blew up those mosque's; it could have been just as likely a move by the US government or the British government to further destabilize Iraq as it may have been by Iraqi's themselves. That's the problem when you create chaos in a country by an illegal aggression.

Quote:

You seem to believe Saddam Hussein cared what anyone thought.

You are pretty ignorant about the Iraqi's and their country, so it's going to be very difficult to take you seriously any longer. I don't know much about you, yet, but what I've seen so far is just plain ordinary dirt ignorance and then you have some kind of attitude of pride about that ignorance.

Quote:

As long as he was feared, it was all good. I keep thinking you have put the funniest thing up here you possibly could, and you keep right on surprising me, thanks again

Ignornace is usually bliss, for you it appears to make you laugh much like the village idiiot sitting on a fence laughs at ordinary things or nothing at all.

Pat claims that the US may have actually blown up the mosques, then has the audacity to claim others are ignorant about Iraq. Tobra, I know funny also and Pat is indeed fun to laugh at.

Yes.
.
When you, fastpat, first began your OT posting frenzy - what?, a couple of months ago? - I would read your posts with interest.
Lately I read them for the entertainment value of watching one's pathology embarrass itself.
.
I do understand, and mildly agree with, one of your points, however. Government is the enemy.
But my view goes further.
Voter/citizen-taxpayer apathy is the true enemy.
.
As you were.
:D

I just cannot take it anymore, Fastpat is on the ignore list.

Pat, I wonder, what is the source of your opinion? Are you simply stirring the pot by asking the counterpoint to every point, or do you simply see everything American as evil? Has the world generally benefitted or not from the presence of the US? Have you had some experience that colors your world view, and why is it that you stay in this country? I assure you, I fully support (and served to defend) your right to express your views, but they are curious to me.

You guys misunderestimate Pat. Because he has nothing worthwhile to refute the original points, he just derails (if possible)

Here are the original points (supported by the first post)

Pat never misses a chance to defend the honor of our enemies, nor a chance to demonize America and/or its leaders. But then again I don't believe he thinks we have any "real" enemies, it's interesting to say the least.

Er, no, I did not claim that. Reading comprehension is 90% of your grade Tim.

F

America is not evil. The US government is evil and has been for a long time.

Quote:

Has the world generally benefitted or not from the presence of the US?

The world has benefitted by the existence of America, it has been made immeasurably poorer by the existence of the US government from the late 19th century onward.

Quote:

Have you had some experience that colors your world view, and why is it that you stay in this country? I assure you, I fully support (and served to defend) your right to express your views, but they are curious to me.

I began to realize that many issues that continually plagued the world in general and America in particular were not because of the liberal-conservative dichotomy; but was a result of government itself. The road to hell being lined by Democrats on one side and Republicans on the other, with Americans and people around the globe suffering from the activities of the US government. This is not a position I arrived at recently, it began more than 10 years ago.

If you think the US government is a positive force around the world you are living with blinders on.

America needs a huge reduction of the US government across the board, in every sector; and at least a 90% reduction in the US government military as it now stands.

The fact that you, and others in this thread, think that a demand for lawful Constitutional government and a cessation of global hegemony is out there or bizarre is what is wrong with the thinking by many, but far from most, in America.

Er, no, this is what I wrote, it could have been just as likely a move by the US government or the British government to further destabilize Iraq as it may have been by Iraqi's themselves.; so claiming that the US government did it is not what I stated at all.

Quote:

When you, fastpat, first began your OT posting frenzy - what?, a couple of months ago? - I would read your posts with interest. Lately I read them for the entertainment value of watching one's pathology embarrass itself.

Unless you're a license psycologist or an MD and have seen me as a patient, which is not the case, then let's knock off the attempts to paint someone with information you don't like as mentally ill. It's what the socialist in the Soviet Union did routinely to dissidents, it's a pretty ugly tactic.
.

Quote:

I do understand, and mildly agree with, one of your points, however. Government is the enemy. But my view goes further. Voter/citizen-taxpayer apathy is the true enemy. . As you were. :D

So, what are you doing about it?

This is what you said Pat.

"We, that's you and me, do not know who blew up those mosque's; it could have been just as likely a move by the US government or the British government to further destabilize Iraq as it may have been by Iraqi's themselves. That's the problem when you create chaos in a country by an illegal aggression."

You SUGGESTED it, to either stir up *****, or you actually believe that the US govt or the British govt blew up the mosques. :eek: :rolleyes:

I stated it because neither you nor I know who did that bombing. Further, just a few months ago British troops were arrested and detained when found dressed as locals in a car full of explosives.

Did you forget that episode?

You are one messed up dude!

I see, then you didn't know anything about what I wrote.

That's not surprising.

What was the outcome ?

Link?

This was actual news, not a wacko site claim I hope? I can't find it.

I found it, seems a touch different picture than you painted.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4262336.stm

Well, I fully support lawful Constitutinal government, and I suppose you could construe the American position in the world as hegemonic if you were a pessimist. I tend to see the good in things more than dwell on the negatives to the point of obsession.


I asked what the source of this opinion was.

What made you realize this? What was the experience that opened your eyes?

This http://tinyurl.com/r8vux is a link to a list of related articles to the British incident I mentioned. It raised quite a stink, particularly when the men's commander stormed the jail in which they were allegedly being held, knocking down walls and injuring dozens of Iraqi's in the process.

The British government, to my knowledge, has never said what was going on or if they did it wasn't plausible.

This is roughly what I found as well.

Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Lord, Jack.
General Jack D. Ripper: You know when fluoridation first began?
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: I... no, no. I don't, Jack.
General Jack D. Ripper: Nineteen hundred and forty-six. Nineteen forty-six, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Uh, Jack, Jack, listen, tell me, tell me, Jack. When did you first... become... well, develop this theory?
General Jack D. Ripper: Well, I, uh... I... I... first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.
General Jack D. Ripper: Yes, a uh, a profound sense of fatigue... a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I... I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: Hmm.
General Jack D. Ripper: I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake.
Group Capt. Lionel Mandrake: No.
General Jack D. Ripper: But I... I do deny them my essence.

Coincidence?
:D

That's hilarious, son, now off to bed with you, your mother will be in soon to tuck you in.

Thought you might get a chuckle.
SmileWavy