Busch cars beat Porsches in Mexico

2.7RACER · 03-06-2006, 07:40 PM

Is it my imagination, NASCAR Busch series cars turning laps in Mexico on a road course faster than Porsche GT cars?
Boris Said under 90 seconds on a 2.5 mile 8 turn layout.
Best Porsche GT3 Cup car over 90 seconds.
And the Busch cars had to negotiate a chicane that the Cup cars didn't have. Help me here.

motion · 03-06-2006, 07:50 PM

I'd be interested in hearing about this one as well. Sounds unbelievable.

Hey Doug, how's the real estate market looking there in RR? Still hot, or not?

CJFusco · CJFusco's Garage

shorter track?

Tervuren · Tervuren's Garage

How do you need help? Granted, I knew Nascar's had a lot of grip, and skilled drivers, and I also knew they where faster around a lot of road courses then a good deal of close bodied cars out there.

A year ago, on RSC, we had a disscussion on how well one could do at the Nurburgring compared to a Mitsubishi Lancer Evo. Was an interesting disscussion.

A lot of people's perception of the nascars, are from the super speedways, where they are massively restricted. I've never been to any nascar race, but I hear they have mammoth power off the super speed ways, and that the mid/short tracks are the best to watch. I'm thinking they are putting something near 700HP unrestricted, possibly more.

Not being into Nascar, and not knowing the track, I'm afraid I can't give a good opinion on whether your laptime estimates are accurate or not. Wouldn't surprise me though, as NAscar's nee to corner hard, and they also carry a huge wallop of horse power, combined with the top drivers needing to be ultra precise to stay on top.

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

Seems to me that a tube frame race car with 700 hp and whatever fully adjustible suspension and brakes you like, set up by a team of guys that know what they are doin and the thing is going to be pretty fast, even if it looks like a Monte Carlo.

2.7RACER · 03-07-2006, 08:53 AM

Motion,
The Rio Rancho real estate market has been good. Nothing like Southern California.
According to a couple realtor's I know, their business is great. Homes not sitting on the market too long.
This area is running behind the national market so I expect any downturn to run behind as well.
Building is still red hot.
The typical home still runs $100-$150 a square foot. Nicer homes $150-$200 a square foot. Luxury homes $200 sq/ft up.
We are probably half the Southern California market.
Schools are over crowded as usual here.
Traffic not even close to So. Cal.
Blue skies, hardly any smog.
Low humidity, makes summer comfortable.
Winter is normally cold, not this year however.
No earthquakes.
Manana kind of culture. Not go-go at all.
Active PCA with a nice 1.66 mile track on the edge of town.
Great for retired and professionals, tougher for the less educated.

NICKG · 03-07-2006, 09:44 AM

first off they don't cup race there, second the course was shorter...by quite a bit.They are not called "nascars"...that is the series name(a pet peeve of mine) Busch cars put down about 650-700hp cup.... 800 up, they also have darn near 20" slicks too...the endurance cars have much harder tires(they change them every 2 or 3 pit stops as opposed to every one) they have much smaller engines..3.8 (231") compared to 5.9 liter (358) and are acually based on actual road cars...not purpose built racers(there is a big compromise on that) like the tube built cars they are. best to compare a trans am car to a busch car...the trans am car would mop the floor with it....busch or cup they are really 60's technology chassis wise that has been honed for many years....no real modern anything, just age honed experience.

pwd72s · 03-07-2006, 09:54 AM

Figure 800 horsepower for Nextel Cup cars, around 700 for the Busch series cars that ran in Mexico City. NASCAR knows how to make a "road race" car. Hate to clue the snobs here, but there is a LOT of automotive know-how around Charlotte, N.C. Lemans? A funny tale from back in the stone age. NASCAR's Woods Bros. were asked if they'd be interested in running a pit for a Lemans entry. They responded in the positive, then asked the pay. They had a good laugh, and decided against Lemans. I think it would be VERY interesting if NASCAR skills were used to build a speedway style car for entry in Lemans. You'll note that it's the pro drivers from the ALMS series who are trying to make it as a Nextel Cup driver, not the other way around. The money talks...

Jeff Higgins · 03-07-2006, 10:49 AM

I wouldn't sell the NASCAR boys too short on their "'60's technology". They spin those old push-rod V-8's up to just over 9,000 rpm on everything but the restrictor plate tracks, and they make them last 500 miles while doing it. An ALMS GT2 911 spins up in the mid-8,000 range with dual overhead cams and four valve per cylinder, not to mention a much shorter stroke and a perfectly balanced boxer layout. The NASCAR V-8 gets around 800 hp, or over 2 hp per cubic inch, and still uses a single four barrel carburator.

Even at 3,400 pounds these cars handle extremely well. You won't see a more rigid chassis on any other form of race car. The brakes are right up there with any other series, and they put more rubber on the ground than most. Their only real weak point in the chassis is that live rear axle, but that doesn't seem to be that big of a detriment.

Road and Track this month has a comparrison between a GT2 ALMS 911 and a CGT. I think a more interesting one would be between the race car they had and a Nextel Cup car. I wonder how close that would be.

Nextel Cup still runs a couple of road courses, don't they? I think Sears Point and Watkins Glenn. Do they run the same layout as the ALMS series, or does ALMS even run these tracks? Anyone have any solid lap times from the same venues to compare?

NICKG · 03-07-2006, 11:26 AM

i was talking 60's about the chassis...(save shocks) but the engine is a testament to good and carefull development. I know the Busch North cars are slower at lime rock and most classes are faster or just equal to cup cars(save the real stock car like world challenge) at the glenn. It depends on the classes...top level to top level on a road course? Nascar cars get spanked. the woods story is not entirely true...they did pit indy cars in the 60's....that was because at that time they were doing things the way they are now...back then they were ahead. now it isn't the case. I was a huge fan in the 80's and 90's...now it's the wwf of car racing. I have no interest in racertainment. I do watch the road course races...its a 2-3 hour train wreck...

450knotOffice · 450knotOffice's Garage

The ALMS drivers try to break into the Nextel Cup because of the money and exposure. You are right, money does talk.

NICKG · 03-07-2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwd72s
NASCAR knows how to make a "road race" car. Hate to clue the snobs here, but there is a LOT of automotive know-how around Charlotte, N.C. Lemans? A funny tale from back in the stone age. NASCAR's Woods Bros. were asked if they'd be interested in running a pit for a Lemans entry. They responded in the positive, then asked the pay. They had a good laugh, and decided against Lemans. I think it would be VERY interesting if NASCAR skills were used to build a speedway style car for entry in Lemans. You'll note that it's the pro drivers from the ALMS series who are trying to make it as a Nextel Cup driver, not the other way around. The money talks...

the main reason you see other drivers wanting to go to nascar is simple...that is where the action is right now. i suppose the fact that both open wheel racing and endurance racing are fragmented by quazi nascar factions against the traditional ones has a big influence there. That is again the reason that you see the talent there too...The IRL/Champ car split killed open wheel here...the ALMS/Grand am (BTW OWNED BY NASCAR) killed endurance racing leaving no real competitor to Nascar. Indy cars were untill the late 90's way more popular than nascar, endurance cars were even bigger till IMSA folded in the 90's. it is nascar's turn on the mantle...and they are already on the way down...tv ratings are even showing it, they killed speedvision and made that into SPEED(nascarvision) ...people are pissed at that and hopefully will have the feds on them for anti trust issues (that will come sooner than later) for their systematic way of eliminating the competition.

sammyg2 · 03-07-2006, 11:42 AM

IMO, NASCAR is the professional wrestling of motorsports.
Sure there's lots of money involved, but it's lack of sophistication from the fans to the participants is still an embarrasment AFAIC.

legion · 03-07-2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sammyg2
it's lack of sophistication from the fans

I've been to a NASCAR race. In my opinion, they were the most courteous and best-behaved fans of any professional sporting event I've ever been too. There was plenty of drinking, but not one fight, let alone rude comment.

sammyg2 · 03-07-2006, 01:16 PM

They must be different in Illinois.
Most of the hard-core nascar fans I know remind me of Joe Dirt and spend most of their time time talking about hemis.

dd74 · 03-07-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sammyg2
They must be different in Illinois.
Most of the hard-core nascar fans I know remind me of Joe Dirt and spend most of their time time talking about hemis.

Are you talking about the NASCAR race out here, specifically in Fontana? I have to say, there was more courteousness in the stands than at a Lakers game.

dd74 · 03-07-2006, 01:39 PM

As for NASCAR being popped with an anti-trust suit, well, it's about time. I'm sure offerings such as Mercedes, BMW, Alfa, Maserati, and the Japanese, are sitting up and watching what happens.

The drivers, IMO, are probably some of the best in the world. I read once where Schmacher was in Taladega, and asked to take out a NASCAR, and came back quite impressed with the talent one needs to drive NASCARs at speed.

As to the cars themselves, I thought most teams have two styles of chassis available to them - specifically one chassis for superspeedways, and another for short tracks and road courses.

scottmandue · 03-07-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dd74
As for NASCAR being popped with an anti-trust suit, well, it's about time. I'm sure offerings such as Mercedes, BMW, Alfa, Maserati, and the Japanese, are sitting up and watching what happens.

I believe the Japanese are scheduled to start racing in NASCAR.

masraum · 03-07-2006, 02:25 PM

Compare a Nascar against a 917, that seems more fair except for the weight.

Jeff Higgins · 03-07-2006, 02:26 PM

It gets even mre specific than that, dd74. There are the short track vs. superspeedway chassis, but within those catagories are the concrete short track, asphalt short track, high banked short track, flatter short track, "not-so-super" (mile or so) speedway, etc. chassis. They are all (or once were) very different. I'm not so sure now-a-days.

You might be able to tell I was once a NASCAR fan. I raised my kids watching that as our sport to share father/son time. I'll chime in too that the fans, drivers, and everyone involved were the epitomy of polite and gracious. I never had to worry about what my young sons saw or heard on TV or at a race. I well remember my then three year old at a Sonics game with me one time when Charles Barkley hollared "fuch you" at a ref loud enough for us to hear him on the 200 level. Never been back.

O.k., so that was then, this is now. No longer a fan. "WWF on wheels" is an apt description. Not just the driving, but the fights, the language (thank you Tony Stewart); the whole package. The charm is gone in their effort to appeal to a larger audience or something. Talk about being out of touch with your demographic.

So F1 starts next week. Should be an interesting year...