Ok wait, I can understand, I guess, how your daughter might be upset if one of her classmates told her she was going to burn in hell. But on the other hand, if you don't believe in hell...what's the problem again?

Would you also get upset if I told you you would burn in Un-foo-foo-land if you didn't do the silly Un-foo-foo dance every morning??

Sorry, I just turned on PM's. I'll send you one to test it and you can just reply.

That's the reason I chuckle when people tell me I am going to hell (it happens on occasion). Empty threat as far as I am concerned.

If his daughter believed in the existence of hell, though, her response might be different.

I think this is where non-Christians have a problem, though. Why do Christians feel the need to tell the rest of us that we are not living our lives correctly? Why can't they simply believe what they want to believe and leave everyone else alone? Believe in the story of creation all you like, but don't try to make public schools teach your personal religious belief as if it was science. Believe in the ten commandments all you want, but don't make courthouses display them, etc. Why is that so hard to understand?

Mike

Exactly, Maffett, exactly!

You just described the “religion gene” (not an actual gene but a set of personality traits). Much has been written about this idea in the literature, for example “The God Gene: How Faith Is Hardwired into Our Genes.” by Dean H. Hamer. Do a Google search on “religion gene” or "god gene" and you’ll see. Here’s one I picked at random: http://www.geocities.com/~gaiachurch/rel-gene.html This guy takes it a bit far, but you get the idea. I don’t have time to search through more articles. I’ll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

I made a post about this on this thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255298&perpage=20&pagen umber=4 which I will repost here:

Well, first off, let me say that I am not defending the over the top members of my faith. I understand that many of them can be overly pushy and preachy about their beliefs.

The reason why Christians feel the need to tell others about their faith is because we believe that is the way to eternal salvation. So keeping that to yourself is doing a disservice to your fellow man, in a way.

Sorta like if I passed you on the street while you were sawing on your arm with a knife. I might stop and suggest that you stop sawing on your arm before you bled to death. Now you might take offense to that if you believed that sawing on your arm was perfectly fine and you had every right to saw on your arm. A bit convoluted, but hopefully you get the point.

The way to talk to people about your faith is not to get into their faces and scream at them that they are going to hell or whatever. That's the unfortunate part and why many people are turned off by Christians. I don't think that the job of a Christian is to try and force their faith down someone else's throat. Our job is to try and live our lives the way God wants us to and be a good witness that way. Then if someone asks or it comes up in conversation, you can share your faith. Bottom line, it is everyone's individual decision on what they want to do with God. You make your choice and you live with whatever consequence that choice may have, religion is no different that any other choice in life.

IROC, I don't push my beliefs on you. I will defend them when discounted and offer an opposing opinion and attempt to correct statements that are not realistic or accurate.

Religion in school? No need, untill the school board starts teaching something as fact that is different than what I believe and what I teach my kids.

It is against the law to teach creationism in public schools, but it is perfectly legal to teach evolution, which quite a few people think is wrong. If they taight both views we wouldn't have a problem, but the ACLU won't allow that to happen.
that is only part of why my kids attend private school. The fact that the public schools around here have to teach everything in english and spanish is another reason.
It is hard enough to keep a kid's attention in school, now they have to repeat every single work twice in two different languages because the public schools are full of kids who don't speak english.

You want to keep religion out of the government?
Take a good hard look at the constitution, or the declaration of independance. Both reference God and were written by Christians.
In fact most of what our country is founded on and our government is based on references the christian faith.
If you don't like the priinciples this country was founded on, one might suggest finding a different counrty?

Christians didn't force religion into the schools or into government, it was always there until the non-believers hires lawyers (ugggghhhh) to try and get rid of it.

It doesn't matter if "quite a few people" think evolution is wrong. The relative "truth" of something is not a function of how many people believe in it (or not). Evolution is a sound theory based on observable evidence - if you don't happen to "believe" in it, then you need to crack some books.

What *you* personally believe is irrelevant to school curriculums. I suppose that Muslim beliefs should be taught also? What about Scientology? Let's teach that, too.

Where in the constitution is God mentioned? I'd like to see that one.

So, if I don't agree with your religion, then I am supposed to leave the country? Wow. Interesting.

Mike

The founding of this country was not based on the bible, or Christianity, although it is a common misconception. If you feel it is was, please do some Google searches and show me a reference to it.

This is an elegant and conclusive belief that neatly settles the question in the minds of people who have chosen to reject Christ. Unfortunately, it goes way beyond the "scientific" evidence that folks like you are so arrogant about.

"Natural selection" is what is essentially proven. "Evolution," in the sense that humans are extra-intelligent, hairless apes.....is not at all proven by science. Animals developing coping mechanisms over long periods of time is accepted fact. Don't pretend to be a scientist, and then try to impress us by going WAY beyond the scientific evidence.

Supe:

Respectfully...

How is evolution a rejection of Christ? I don't understand the correlation.

Thanx.

Kang,

Thanks for your comments. I haven't pursued this train of thought outside of my own mental hand-wringing. I did not know that books have been written on the "religion gene". I'll have to look some of them up.

I like your thought about religion getting "stuck" at the advent of writing. That makes perfect sense. The oral traditions could no longer be (as easily) modified by the priest du jour. Although I understand that Constantine and the Council of Nicea edited and codified the present bible (new testament) with a great deal of indulgence. Probably not to the extent Dan Brown thinks, but more than many are willing to except.

I've wondered if the "religion gene" is older than mankind itself. Perhaps as old as communal life. The communal nature of many life forms could be based on a similar instinct. The only difference being that man has developed a complex means for communication, and therefore his religions are equally complex. Honey bees communicate on a much less developed level, but somehow an individual bee inherits and learns his role in preserving the hive.

" "scientific" evidence that folks like you are so arrogant about. "

To me the arrogance is not so much from the scientific community, but rather the faithful. Not in an elitist way relative to others, but rather a position of self importance relative to the universe.

The modern western faiths teach that an individual is "important to god". This leads the faithful to assume that all else must be less important. Doctrines also lead us to believe all was created for us.

The earth is an old place. The universe even older, and much, much bigger. So much has gone on before us, and aside from us. I see a god to whom everything is important. In the grand scheme of things, we're not as important as religion would make us out to be. We haven't been around long enough for anyone or anything to even take notice of us yet.

all the jesus shows i have seen have been in the desert. no ice in the desert. i find more interest in that jesus looks like a lead singer in a grunge band. either way, it is called FAITH. ya gotta have faith.

Maffett:

In my view of the world, I agree with your assessment is very much the same, unless I misunderstand what you have written. I am awed every time I sit outside at night and look at the stars, even watching something as simple as the bees pollinating our citrus trees. We are small creatures compared to the universe, yet some will argue that the entire universe was created for our benefit. I consider that to be extreme arrogance. Every one of the three major religions think their way is the only way, and everyone else is not saved. That is also arrogance. I hope that God is more merciful and unbiased than that.

Some of the religious extremists remind me of the ant, floating down the river, lying on his back with an erection screaming:

"Raise the drawbridge!! Raise the drawbridge!!"

Hang on ... stop the truck, let's go back just one step.

One guy tells you that he's "done some research," and is now convinced of an obscure and non-repeatable weather pattern that happened 2000 years ago which conclusively disproves the deity of Christ. Weather patterns? Come on -- we can't even say with any accuracy what the climate was like two hundred years ago -- what makes you think that this schmuck is any more precise, an order of magnitude earlier? Further, if this phenomenon is possible, it should be seen to occur even today, in some places. However, this brilliant researcher can point to no documented examples of this phenomenon ever having occurred.

To make it more interesting, let's do some math. Assuming a density of ice of .92 g/ml, and of Galilee water as 1 g/ml (no, it's probably not right, but it'll do for this "back of the envelope" estimation), and assuming that Jesus was a skinny mudder-fugger, weighing a scant 55 kilos, the ice would have been 8cm thick and nearly 3 meters on each side (assuming square). And Jesus caught up with a boat rowed by a bunch of brawny fishermen, drifting on this monstrous ice floe? Alright, I'll buy into your story -- Jesus commanded the weather patterns to do this non-repeatable event, formed himself an ice floe, then caused said block of ice to drift faster than the boat that his disciples were rowing. Further, he brought with him a second block of ice for Peter to climb onto, but Peter wasn't wearing non-slip soles, so he fell off. Fortunately, Jesus block of ice was big enough for both of them, so Jesus could pull Peter out of the drink.

Wait a minute ... this new story requires Jesus to have performed even more miracles than the eyewitness accounts. Hmmm, maybe I'll reconsider. If you can believe this guy, then more power to ya; I just don't have the faith.

Who are you to say what level of peace my beliefs bring me?

If the story is true, one couldn't have said a more loving thing than your daughter, if she didn't accept Christ, would burn in everlasting Hell...If it is true it will resound in her very soul and she will know its truth, at a level deeper than adults whose minds are muddied with fleshly life experience.

And lets not lump all nutbags in the same burlap sack...Christian fundamentalists made America what it is, and to this day do more for the world's oppressed and huddled masses than any other philosophy on the planet.

Not all the nutbags can be lumped into the same sack...Some stand out and march to a totally different and internally contradictary drummer.

God is going to create a world, populate it with different races, different philosophies and condemn those who do not follow one of these philosophies over all others. Hmmm. If there is one true philosophy, then why are those born into other religions in the first place? Do we put limitations on God's powers? Why isn't there a level playing field? People are more comfortable with the beliefs that surrounded them in the first few years of their lives. It is difficult to convince a Hindu or a Bhuddist or any other non-Christain that their way of thinking is totally wrong. I will not even try. Reason?

In my little world, I feel that for God to be God, He must be considerably more forgiving, broad minded and merciful than some would lead you to believe.

I ask the same questions I asked before in another thread and there were no answers, either thoughtful or "fundamental"

Why does God need us? What part of God's universe would be empty if we did not exist? And even more important:

Did God create us in His image, or did we create God in our image, complete with human weaknesses like anger, jealousy, revenge, to name a few?

These are real questions, not some trick.

God should be a source of love and trust, not a source of fear. We should do the right things because they are right and not because we fear some sort of punishment. That is what children do.

Nothing, nothing would be empty. He is complete in of Himself.

I believe that God created us in HIS image, for fellowship with HIM. Well, that was the plan until Adam messed up.