Just to be clear, if I'm in a room with 39 other people, my IQ is 150 and they are all 70, the average IQ is 72, they are all below average.

If you have one foot in a bucket of 180 degree water and another in a bucket of ice water, then on average your pretty comfortable.

Now that is good math!

Whether it is true or not, I cannot say but I think this is funny.'
'

A man walks into a bank, asks the teller for change for a dollar so he can feed the parking meter.

"I'm sorry sir, but our computers are down. I cannot help you."

Yes, it wasn't mathematically accurate (I should have said that the 50% were the mode), but I stand by my statement. I believe 75% of the population falls between 85 and 115 (think bell curve), so I was thinking more along the lines of probability.

Chances are high that if half of the people in the room seem to have a similar level of intelligence and that level seems low that they are probably average and you are above average.

Re: Do they not teach basic math anymore.
 

As long as she got a barely passing grade in Math and passed the F-CATS she is fit to graduate according to our Governor Jeb.

Thanks Jeb!! Now my son spends his weeks getting ready for stadardized tests instead of actually learning to function in the real world. No child left behind??......BS!! All children suffer due to his agenda.

Jim, Your one of the reasons that we are in a heap of trouble. These standardized tests are a joke. They are so simple an idiot with mental problems can pass them. The no child left behind act simply helps point this fact out to the intelligent people in the world.

My youngest kid, no mental giant, passed the HS graduation test in the 9th grade, first try, and that was before they lowered the passing grade. Next the public system wasted the next 3 years of her life, doing nothing but keeping up the scores of a bunch of losers that never will pass the test.

Best reason to ditch public ed and only support private ed.

VOTE NO on all public ed.

This problem is more serious than just not having math skills. The lack of math skills is a symptom. The root of the problem threatens our nations existence as a major player on the world stage. While our kids play Nintendo and wonder what games they’re going to buy next, kids of developing nations like South Korea, India and even China are hitting the books to improve their chance at success in their newfound development boom. Our kids are not dumb they’re just complacent. Why should our kids study hard when everything is given to them? Such actions foster a sense of unhealthy entitlement. Our kids are just not hungry enough anymore to go out and make something of themselves.

Industry knows this. IBM and other big name companies has setup shop in Bangalore India. IBM has hired nearly 30,000 employees. Masters and PhD candidates are readily available there. Countries like S. Korea, Japan, and China have similar stories. Even the PhD’s we do have are not staying here because of the stagnant technology. A very high percentage of PhD’s awarded here in the US are being pulled to other countries because U.S. companies are not developing cutting edge technologies anymore. In 1990 our high tech exports was $56 billion dollars, now our high tech exports is -$26 billion dollars. Why? Our infrastructure is already established. It is not cost effective for U.S. companies to switch to, say, smart visa cards that are so popular in Europe and Asia. High speed Internet over cell phones has been available in Europe for quite some time but here it is just starting to make an appearance. In South Korea, 60% of all households get their TV signal from broadband Internet connections. Necessity is the mother of invention. If we don’t need a new credit card system, a new cellular infrastructure, a new broadcast technology or to go to the moon, then what are supposed to invent? I know there’s always something but think about it. Our nation does have it all – thus the complacency.

Combine that with our education system that is greatly lacking, to put it mildly, and this is what you end up with - kids that can't count change at McDonalds.

Well said, and unfortunately it's spiraling downwards. A HUGE key is attracting more Americans to majoring in math and science related fields. Judging from my school, and statistics that I have seen, Americans are in the minority in engineering. Especially in the masters and PhD programs. When I say Americans I mean actual residents, the majority of our students are here from other countries. They will receive their education, then take the knowledge back to their home country. We have to stop the knowledge outflux, and that means educating those that will stay in the USA.

Bush recently announced a new campaign to attract American students to math and science related fields, and it's a good first step. We need to give huge incentives to students to go into these harder fields, more scholarships and grants would be a good start. I put in probably 50 hours a week on class and homework as an Aerospace Engineering student, if my wife didn't work there's no way I'd have the time. Kids realize this, that's why they end up in business school. We need to do something now, because there's far more engineers on the verge of retirement than there are in the pipeline, it's a problem poised to get much worse.

I remember fondly how my father (a machinist) would give me little geometry or math problems as a child and help me solve them - long before we ever covered them in school.

Like people who have have Porsches but can't afford to maintain them, I think that a lot of people have kids that they don't have time or aren't willing to raise properly. When the kids fail they blame it on the schools.

-Chris

I believe we need to see changes in the market before you'll see folks get back into the sciences and mathematics. I have a degree in Civil Engineering, and one reason I am not currently in the field is low pay. Even after climbing the ladder, the pay would not grow significatnly, despite having far greater responsibility and longer hours.

When engineers are in demand, I would hope to see wages raised. Of course, the other option is having wages for lesser jobs ( I will lump bidness, management, etc in this class) decrease. It disturbs me to see some jackoff make 6 figure incomes because he's at good pimping mortgages. Of course, money isn't everything. I knew Civil Engineering was the bottom rung in engineering (regarding pay, difficulty, and sophistication).

I must agree to some extent. A disfunctional child is generally the product of failing parents and schools.

My wifes finishing her teachign degree. Here in the state of Fl the education system is extremely screwed up. They spend the whole time studying for the fcat, i don;t understand that, if they wold actually teach then there should be no reason why they wouldn't pass it. The no child left behind is extremely stupid, there are kids that are in middle school that can't read but in english classes, then they have to cater to those kids and slow the class down, but if hes in a class with his equals it's discrimantion. My ole lady insists that we don't raise kids in this backward ass state, i'm starting to understand why more and more everyday.

In India you can get your PhD at absolutly no cost to you.The Indian government pays for the whole thing. That's just how it is there. That's not a grant program or anything. There's no better way, in my opinion, to invest in your country's future. Contrast that to the US, the most powerful and richest nation in the world. They would rather spend $250,000 studying the viscosity of Ketsup then paying to educate our youth.

Parents have their fair share of blame too. In fact I would consider their offense more aggregious than our governments as parents can actually make the biggest difference by being involved in their kids' lives, but many parents are too busy chasing after a lifestyle than spending time with their kids.

When we first got married my wife and I came to an agreement that there will always be one parent in the house, thus we adjust our lifestyle accordingly.

They added $110,000 to the katsup grant to study why you get water if you don't shake the bottle first...

The suspended matter settles.

Make the check payable to....

I'm reminded of a theory regarding why the Roman empire fell. This particular scientist theorized that because the Romans began using lots of lead in everything from cooking to jewlery, much of the high society contracted lead poisoning. Lead poisoning causes brain damage that can affect decision making abilities and judgement. This lead to the degradation of all aspects of society, from being morally bankrupt (i.e pedophilia, orgies, incest etc.) to just plane poor decision making.

I wonder if what we are witnessing now is the modern day equivalent of the Roman lead poisoning theory. Except for us, the dumbing down of our nation is caused by fat living complacency.

I know it's a bit off the topic of this thread, but all this talk of making change, etc, reminded me of this story. I have no clue if it is real or made-up, but it's funny either way:

Two-Dollar Bill
On my way home from work, I stopped at Taco Bell for a quick bite to eat. In my billfold are a $50 bill and a $2 bill. I figure that with a $2 bill, I can get something to eat and not have to worry about anyone getting irritated at me for trying to break a $50 bill.

Me: "Hi, I'd like one seven-layer burrito please, to go."

Server: "That'll be $1.04. Eat in?"

Me: "No, it's to go."

At this point, I open my billfold and hand him the $2 bill. He looks at it kind of funny.

Server: "Uh, hang on a sec, I'll be right back."

He goes to talk to his manager, who is still within my earshot. The following conversation occurs between the two of them:

Server: "Hey, you ever see a $2 bill?"

Manager: "No. A what?"

Server: "A $2 bill. This guy just gave it to me."

Manager: "Ask for something else. There's no such thing as a $2 bill."

Server: "Yeah, thought so."

He comes back to me and says, "We don't take these. Do you have anything else?"

Me: "Just this fifty. You don't take $2 bills? Why?"

Server: "I don't know."

Me: "See here where it says legal tender?"

Server: "Yeah."

Me: "So, why won't you take it?"

Server: "Well, hang on a sec."

He goes back to his manager, who has been watching me like I'm a shoplifter, and says to him, "He says I have to take it."

Manager: "Doesn't he have anything else?"

Server: "Yeah, a fifty. I'll get it and you can open the safe and get change."

Manager: "I'm not opening the safe with him in here."

Server: "What should I do?"

Manager: "Tell him to come back later when he has real money."

Server: "I can't tell him that! You tell him."

Manager: "Just tell him."

Server: "No way! This is weird. I'm going in back."

The manager approaches me and says, "I'm sorry, but we don't take big bills this time of night."

Me: "It's only seven o'clock! Well then, here's a two dollar bill."

Manager: "We don't take those, either."

Me: "Why not?"

Manager: "I think you know why."

Me: "No really ... tell me why."

Manager: "Please leave before I call mall security."

Me: "Excuse me?"

Manager: "Please leave before I call mall security."

Me: "What on earth for?"

Manager: "Please, sir."

Me: "Uh, go ahead, call them."

Manager: "Would you please just leave?"

Me: "No."

Manager: "Fine -- have it your way then."

Me: "Hey, that's Burger King, isn't it?"

At this point, he backs away from me and calls mall security on the phone around the corner. I have two people staring at me from the dining area, and I begin laughing out loud, just for effect. A few minutes later this 45-year-oldish guy comes in.

Guard: "Yeah, Mike, what's up?"

Manager (whispering): "This guy is trying to give me some ... (pause) funny money."

Guard: "No kidding! What?"

Manager: "Get this ... a two dollar bill."

Guard (incredulous): "Why would a guy fake a two dollar bill?"

Manager: "I don't know. He's kinda weird. He says the only other thing he has is a fifty."

Guard: "Oh, so the fifty's fake!"

Manager: "No, the two dollar bill is."

Guard: "Why would he fake a two dollar bill?"

Manager: "I don't know! Can you talk to him, and get him out of here?"

Guard: "Yeah."

Security Guard walks over to me and ...

Guard: "Mike here tells me you have some fake bills you're trying to use."

Me: "Uh, no."

Guard: "Lemme see 'em."

Me: "Why?"

Guard: "Do you want me to get the cops in here?"

At this point I am ready to say, "Sure, please!" but I want to eat, so I say, "I'm just trying to buy a burrito and pay for it with this two dollar bill."

I put the bill up near his face, and he flinches like I'm taking a swing at him. He takes the bill, turns it over a few times in his hands, and says, "Hey, Mike, what's wrong with this bill?"

Manager: "It's fake."

Guard: "It doesn't look fake to me."

Manager: "But it's a two dollar bill."

Guard: "Yeah ... ?"

Manager: "Well, there's no such thing, is there?"

The security guard and I both look at him like he's an idiot, and it dawns on the guy that he has no clue.

So, it turns out that my burrito was free, and he threw in a small drink and some of those cinnamon thingies, too.

Made me want to get a whole stack of two dollar bills just to see what happens when I try to buy stuff.

If I got the right group of people, I could probably end up in jail. You get free food there, too!

kang that's freakin' awesome.

I have a 6 dollar bill with Bill Clintons face on it. Bet he would take that one.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1145056395.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1145056415.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1145056784.jpg

Dos dollars, Naw its not real and I can't count that high. And not only that I never heard of Jefferson.

The sad thing is that these morons (the teachers) want to blame Bush for their failures. Its all the no child left behind acts fault.

We also are much larger than any of those nations except China. I don't think rural mainland China has great infrastructure if something like 700 million Chinese make less than $1,000 a year.

If we had a high tax rate and an area the size of Texas, I'm sure we could also afford to keep it well maintained and enjoy new technology. I think that's part of the problem- the return from sparsely populated areas like Nebraska and Wyoming don't justify the investment for private industry.

Please tell me more. I'm interested in going for CE, and not for any superficial reason like money. I enjoy trying to improve the physical world. I thought it was a secure profession that paid okay, which satisfies me if I'll enjoy the work.

Oh, and I do think they should reissue $2 bills or coins here. In Europe, they were very useful.

The big advantage that these developing countries have is that they do not have an established infrastructure as we do. So they are going from nothing to state-of-the-art. Implementing these new techonologies presents other challenges, which requires more specialized workers. Thus the draw for the highly educated. I have a friend who moved to China for a couple of years and worked for Lay's Potato Chips. She is now attending Wharton School of Business. When she's done she's going back to China to cash in on their booming economy.

As an aside, implementing an infrastucture where none existed before, is actually easier, because there is no legacy topology with which it must co-exist....
edit: sorry. drinking. you already said that...I'm a twit...
SmileWavy

We have no real problem in the US. We have the developing ruling class, the ones that went to private school, and the developing surf class, the ones that took surfing in public school. No wait. Its anyone that went to public school.

They don't need to reissue 2 dollar bills. They have tons from the '95 printing. Just go to the bank and tell them that you want them.

When I worked at the topless bar a few years back the managers had a couple of hundred dollars worth of them in every drawer. The theory was that if we had a bunch of 2 dollar bills floating around the club that the employees would get them for tips.

And, of course, we have plenty fo dollar coins running around for the asking, the sakajewea, or something like that.

It's too expensive to leave kids back a grade if they don't cut it, and the teachers don't like it, so just push 'em up and let's get on with it...

ianc

Lots of good thinking here. I wish the population in general could have this depth of insight. I retired from the education system, so I could rant on for hours. IANC, it's not the teachers who don't like to hold the kids back, it's the administration. If they have kids held back, it looks bad for their statistics, hence all proceed to the next grade.
It all starts at the beginning. My wife teaches first grade. Yearly she has one to three kids that arrive in her class not performing to grade level. She is able to bring some up to level. Others just don't have what it takes, are behind on the maturity curve, or some other thing which would make them benefit from staying in first grade another year. She goes through all of the SSTs and other special procedures, but at the end of the year that kid goes on to the next grade.
I watched that also for years. The poor kids never catch up, and as years go by, they are more lost and problematic. This isn't everything, but it's one contributing factor to the whole picture.
This whole thing of making sure everyone has to (appear to) suceed is really bad.

Yes; I totally agree here. Society feels in some way that it's wrong to admit there is a difference in the academic ability of a slower student. All students are created 'equal', right? PC strikes again, and it's really sand in the cogs...

ianc

It's so bad that many businesses here can not find enough people to work because they either don't want to or they're to stupid.

Maybe it was just to early or a bad start? Hope so anyway. I'm not very good with math but I can do the basics in my head, they allow the use of calculators and computers way to often.

At my school (private) I have to keep working on things until I get them right, I am required to get an 80% or I fail. I am a year behind taking algebra 2 instead of pre calc (take it in senior year) but at least I am learning instead of just getting an A for showing up.

Kids used to be held back. Then the PC crowd thought it was the poor little kids ego that was damaged and consequently, when he was still screwing up in higher grades, they said it was because he was held back earlier!! Talk about circular reasoning.

Anyway its the PC crowds duty to MAKE everyone EQUAL. If you can't bring up the bottom, just bring down the top. Funny thing is that if you give a bunch of people the exact same resources to work with, several years later some will have squat to show for it and others will have made silk purses out of hogs ears or whatever. And thats after the PC crowd has stolen half of the sucessful ones work and given it to the unsucessful ones. They still only have squat to show for it.

Could it be some people are satisfied with having squat ? No because everyone still wants more. It seems to be that if you give some people a lump of coal, they will lose it, get cancer from it, use it rob a liquor store or somehow use it to produce a negative result. Others will warm their house, find a cure for cancer, or find other productive uses for it.

In other words, no matter how hard the PC crowd tries, some people will always be a drag on society, and others will be a plus. If we are to survive we must not let the PC crowd drag us all down to the lowest common denominator so we can all be EQUAL.

We need to put the very competent in their own class, where they can learn to compete and get better, lesser ones in a class with their peers, and people who just can't get it, well their own class where they can get special attentin and not drag down the high achievers, otherwise they can only bring down others with them as that is their main talent, bringing things down. Allaround its more FAIR than what we are dong now.,

snowman,

I agree, mostly, with your final proposition regarding tracking students towards future goals, even though the current system does that to some extent. Example: you typically won't find the kids taking AP Chemistry, Physics, Calculus, AP Biology ending up as the fast food workforce, ditchdiggers... How early in life would you propose this segregation? Jr. High, Elem. School, High School? I am honestly interested.

I also agree with the concept of graduation being dependant upon testing so that certain standards are met. Are these standards to be determined by the Feds? the States? the local school boards?

I don't fully understand your postion on NCLB legislation, however. Earlier in this thread, you praise NCLB, yet in your last post you appear to say that not all students can achieve the standards. Specifically, your second, third and fourth paragraphs regarding the "PC crowd". I wouldn't have considered the proponents of NCLB to be "the PC crowd."

I am a product of public ed. Are you from a public or private ed. background? You may have already answered this and I missed it. If so, my apologies.

I too am unhappy about weakening curricular standards for any reason.

The current standards, set by no child, are so low, that everyone can pass them, they are almost meaningless.

Most children can be completely tracked by 8th grade, usually 3rd grade is enough for a 90% cut. However there should never be any barrier for a kid to "prove" himself at any time. By barrier I don't mean test, but rule or law. If you pass the test you are in, if you don't, well you didn't pass the test. They do it in Europe, we used to do it, so its certainly possible.

Tests and standards should be set on a global basis by the feds. But we need to return to the decentralized schooling of yesterday IE de consolidate schools so that parents really are in control. Better yet private schools should replace all public ones, just vouchers good for one basic education. Scholarships would fill in any need for the bright student that doesn’t have their own resources to go to the best schools. Yes some schools would be better than others, just like the students, but that would at least open up genuine opportunity for all. The socialist system has failed, and failed miserably.

I went to private school for 8 years, and public for 4. I would say at least 8 or the 12 years was a total waste of my time as I learned nothing more than 4 real years of school would have taught me. My children, who went to mostly public school, wasted at least 5 years of their life in them, learning nothing. College was much more rewarding after the first 2 wasted years, relearning stuff that was suppose to be learned in 8th grade. The next 3 years and grad school in Electronics Engineering was at least interesting. I have also taken grad classes for at least 15 years on an informal basis that were useful. Bottom line, school is a terrible waste for anyone with an IQ above 90. Students that want hands on learning need to be accommodated. The world needs a few bright auto students as well as a lot of dumb ones. Every trade needs highly skilled workers, craftsmen, bright craftsmen. They are being cheated by our system. In fact future craftsmen and tradesmen get nothing out or our current system. It needs changing so that bright students can get something out of it and so that slow students also get something out of it. Right now neither gets much return for the time invested.

The grammar, spelling, punctuation and run-on sentences used in many of the above posts; are proof enough for me regarding the quality of the respondents education.

If one is available, peruse a Maguffy's Reader from the 1890s. You would be surprised at the level of understanding expected from a fifth grader.

I agree with the comments concerning grammer and spelling, but attribute much of it to "typing in haste", or "exercising fingers while brain is in neutral".

What is more alarming is the incoherence of some posts and the total inaccuracy of statements made in an effort to bolster one's point of view. It is as if the writer is hoping that the reader will take the bait, hook, line and sinker, to be the truth. One should add to the mix the puerile use of personal attack as a substitute for logic and reason.

Public school math teacher chiming in here. (one of the morons I guess)

NCLB has only added red tape for schools. The more time we spend with red tape the less we spend with kids. I know politicians mean well but they only make things worse when they legislate. Non-public schools have less red tape. They usually also have more parents that care than public schools, resulting in a higher than average group that twill try harder.

You can't legislate that kids and parents that will try harder and care more. Teachers keep doing more and more and the kids seem to do less and less. The harder teachers work - the less the kids work. We are in a cycle of society where we "owe" some people a good life even if they are not too productive. Some of the kids have a poor homelife, some have a single parent that can't do a good job alone, some have parents that don't care at all, some kids have parents that have an "attitude" so it is no wonder that the students have an attitude.

Please don't blame the schools for society's ills. In some countries only the kids who do well in school progress to the next level. In some countries they RESPECT teachers a lot more than say pro athletes. Our problem isn't with "us moron teachers" but rather with our society as a whole.

Actually...
Figuring a 40 hour week, $7/hr works out to $14,560 per year before taxes.
Now, consider this. Most minumim wage places will *NOT* work a person a full 40 hours, more like 30-35. Usually in an effort to screw people out of health benefits.
Let's be generous, and say 35 hours. $245/week. About $980 per month..not enough to live on.
$12,740 per year @ 35 hours per week. Before taxes, FICA, FUCU, SCRUU, and other junk are taken out.

I know this because I am a minimum wage person outside my regular field. I have worked minimum wage at all of my jobs except one, and will never qualify for anything else from a regular job. This is why I started my own company, and now make between $150-300 per hour as one of thebest in my field. I will never work minimum wage again.

Ok, I'm dying to see the mechanical interaction between a stripper and a dollar coin.

Thom;

You and I think so alike on some things it's scary.

I could find a place to stick it.