Don't tell me you've never seen the ole stripper, tequila bottle, & stack of quarters trick?...

Duh! There's a coin slot! And it accepts single coins or whole rolls.

I love to misspell at least one word. Gives the morons something to say. As to content or ideas, they have none to contribute.

Teachers that complain about no child are indeed morons. They were complaining before the act even went into effect. Why because they were told to do so by their union. A bunch of sheep being led over a cliff.

Unfortunately k.b. is right about teachers having to do more while students do less. Plus some of the "new" ideas that come along are so bad, I don't see how anybody in education goes for it without a peep. Back when I was teaching high school level, at one time there was a rage to have students use calculators in math classes. I was told to allow them to use calculators to solve problems & take tests. The reasoning was that in the future everybody would use calculators and computers to do everything. My question to them was, "What if they don't have a calculator or computer on hand at the time?" I never allowed my students to use calculators on tests, and could only use calculators to do their work after they had demonstrated to me they could solve problems by head & hand. Others were happy to let students do everything using calculators. I still wonder what the result of that was.

A good question Marv,

On the one hand, it is good for everyone to have a solid foundation in such basics. On the other, should we shun the services of such devices since they are so readily available and permit such speed and accuracy in calculation?

ianc

Oh, absolutely not. But I found that students that came into my classes and had only used "such devises" had a much lower level of problem solving abilities. What I did was transition my students into the use of calculators. Once they would do it the "old fashioned" way, they picked up the use of calculators really fast.

Yes I say ban all calculators in maths class. They're clearly the problem. I know I lost all ability to do mental or pen and paper computations after I'd been introduced to a calculator in first year of high school.

Those that can't add or do mental computations may be able to use a calculator but I can't see how it's a causal link. Same as using a keyboard really - I'm sure most of you don't have any problems writing on paper even though you may be proficient on a computer.

"Teachers that complain about no child are indeed morons. They were complaining before the act even went into effect. Why because they were told to do so by their union. A bunch of sheep being led over a cliff."
Snowy - do you mean 'no children' or 'any child'? Or is this one of your deliberate errors to confuse the morons?
- Lemmings and cliff tops are traditionally related, whereas sheep can be led anywhere.
- I don't see where unions come into this argument at all (other than in your head)
- did you by any chance have a tough time at school (perhaps conforming to those moronic norms of spelling, grammar and considered intellectual thought/debate)?

my stepkids were required to have graphing calculators in school. Consequently my stepson uses a calculator for simple single digit multiplication.

Kids should be taught to use the abacus early in school. I've taught myself. I really wish I had learned when the kids were young and taught them. I think it'd help both, but especially the stepson who's less math/science oriented.

They require a different way of thinking about numbers that would probably be especially useful to people that have a problem with math. It'd teach them a different point of view to work from.

Unfortunately math isn't the only subject that's lacking. I don't think either of my kids could diagram a sentence or pick out the parts of speech in a sentence. And they went to a really good school.

Whew, at least that clarifies that I'm not a moron. I'm not complaining - just stating the facts. NCLB has done more to hurt education than it has done to help it. It is more about politics than it is about education.


I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the
facts.

.............Will Rogers

A question to the public school teachers out there:
How many hours per year are the students actually in class and actually being instructed?
be honest now, no exaggeration. Most of us have kids in school and know the answer already. Please account for 1 week off in the fall, 1 week off in the spring, 2 1/2 weeks off in winter, 3 months off in the summer, average of 1 friday off per month during the school year, and half days off so often is is hard to kep track of them.
no, picket line duty doesn't count (So Cal joke).

It costs me $800 a month to put my two kids in private school and it is worth every penny.

Here in VA, it's state law that students must spend 180 days in school. How much of that time is spent on instruction, I don't know.

Just remember that I am a product of that system and have a BSEE and an MSEE degree, with enough casual grad courses to have a couple of phds.

I did rely on secretaries for spelling ect because I only delt with the creative aspects of the job, like any artist would. And my artwork sold for a lot of money. People that corrected the grammer and spelling were a dime a dozen. Seems that they couldn't handle the "intellectual" part.

And the point of your question is what?

Sorry mate but an MSEE degree dosn't mean anything to me - I'm assuming it's a well known american institution. Congratulations on your art work though. If I was fortunate enough to live off selling art I'd probably hire secretaries but I don't see how it would diminish my capacity to spell or articulate a thought- especially if I'd completed a prestigious MSEE degree and done enough graduate courses to have a couple of phd's. Your phd system must be a little different to ours. We usually require a significant original academic contribution to a given field, as opposed to casual grad courses.

In any case, your posts read as though they've come from someone with little experience or capacity to think, simply mouthing utterances they've heard elsewhere. It may not be so, but it certainly appears that way.

I think his point is that public schools are worthless.

No, I think that is yours.

Yeah, I am a public school grad, two BS and MSME.

gavinlit,

sorry mate, you missed the whole point. Typical of the non thinking leftist crowd. I am a PRODUCT OF YOUR GLORIFIED SYSTEM. So what does that say for your system??? Oh I also had a minor in nuclear physics. But English, its sort of a waste, all those immigrants you know.

1) I'm not glorifying any system. I believe both public and private schools can be good and bad (in our country).
2) None of the systems are 'mine'.
3) People who blame any system should usually take a good look in the mirror.
4) Any given system is not going to suit every student. We seem to have a common thought on that at least. There are a proportion of students that are not well served by the current system in my country. I can only assume yours is similar. Perhaps you were one of them although your parading of credentials would seem to suggest otherwise.
4) My original post wasn't about a system but rather about you incapacity to make a coherent and reasonable point. At this stage you've failed to respond to any of my points.
5) Who says I'm leftist? You may call me 'underist' if you insist on attaching some kind of 'ist' to me.

I can tell your a leftist by the smell. You have no valid points to consider.

For example "Those that can't add or do mental computations may be able to use a calculator but I can't see how it's a causal link. Same as using a keyboard really - I'm sure most of you don't have any problems writing on paper even though you may be proficient on a computer." Talk about pointless nonsense. Clearly an indication of a left thinking individual.

Calculators are to math like TV sets are to reading. No mental abiltiy is required. Being able to manipulate numbers in your head is like being able to think of concepts in your head. This less than abstract task of numbers eventually leads to very abstract thinking, just like reading of concepts does. If you do not practice it you can never master it. To use a calculator is to bypass this process and gain nothing.

An engineer or scientist is far superior to any so called political scientist. Why? Because mother nature is a ***** and immediately corrects wrong assumptins by engineers and scientists. Political science, so called science, ignores results that they do not like and continue like their unfounded, wrong assumptins are correct, when they are not.

Yeah, I took the GRE by computer last week. It only covered maybe 10th grade math (geometry but no trig) but there were _no_ calculators allowed! Miraculously I remembered factorials and long division. Looking back on it, it was fun not to use a machine to solve easy calculations.

I had a chemistry professor make us do equilibrium constant calculations without a calculator (quick, what's 6x10^-12 to the -1/2 power?). OK, maybe not so quick, but you can get pretty close in a minute or so on paper... Seemed painful at the time but it's a cool party trick now - good for impressing the chicks!

Maybe I need to get to better parties?

mike
'78 SC

ok -I'll spell it out clearly for you. The manner in which calculators are introduced and utilised in the field of mathematics is open to debate. Stating that the use of calculators somehow renders people incapable of mathematical thought is absurd. There is no causal link between calculator use and lack of mathematical understanding. Feel free to point out any study that contradicts my last sentence. Or you can always go for the straw man and throw out some meaningless labels. Suit yourself.

Please explain to me how 'being able to manipulate numbers in your head' is 'less than abstract'. I would imagine that thinking of anything is an abstract process but again feel free to correct me.

Manipulating numbers does not necessarily lead to anything. If you're trying to infer a link between mental number computation and algebraic manipulation then (once again) your inferring a causal relationship that just isn't there. Sure, the capacity to perform mental arithmetic is integral to using algebraic structures but it's not in itself sufficient.

I agree that if you use a calculator to bypass any understanding of numbers is detrimental. I do not think this means that calculators are bad or to be avoided. I do not see how this has anything to do with a particular system of education or yours or my political leanings. (EDIT) How is this related to political science?

I'm glad that you can 'smell' I'm a leftist. Clearly one of your artistic talents. Now if you'd like to actually make a considered point I'm happy to go along. The reason I entered this thread is that it's related to my main field of work & thought it might be free of name slinging and childish comments. Give it a try - you just might enjoy it.

Oh - and I like your style going back and adding things to posts. Very clever :)
I'm sure the other 'nuclear science' minors agreed with you that calculators were worthless and the cause of all mathematics education problems.

snowy??

thought so

Since you clearly cannot grasp the connection between mental manupulation of numbers and creative thought, there is little use in discussing it with you. Calculators are great, I use them, and computers all of the time. Yet they have only a very small place in the education system.

To truly understand something, how the world works, how physics work, how to build a building, an engine, anything, you must have a FEEL for it. This "feel" is developed by having a sense of the magnitude of things and the relative way they interact with each other. This "feel" can only be developed by becoming very very familiar with numbers and their magnitude. An instinctive feel. Computers only back up this sense. They only document what one "knows" to begin with. The computers can extend this "feel" but they cannot establish the basic concept that one develops by becoming "one" with them. This feel is developed by using math, without the use of calculators. Actually without numbers, although the numbers are necessary at first, to develop the correct relative relationships between variables. The concepts of twice as much, 10 times as much, infinity, cannot be realized without first getting a feel for the numbers. Numbers that are first counted on ones fingers.

ok -we're not going to see eye to eye on this but no matter. I agree with your 'feel' statements. I agree that computers/calcuation devices can back up or extend this 'feel'. Yes, they can't establish the basic concepts but no, the use of them does not automatically imply a lack of conceptual understanding. I still say use of a calculator does not mean a lack of understanding.

Mental numeric manipulation MAY lead to other thought processes but not always. Indeed there are many that are proficient at mental number calculations but are not able to generalise or go to the next stage of mathematical development.

Now, about that comment of yours that manipulating numbers is 'less than abstract' ;)
Oh and still don't fathom how political leanings, political science or any of the other stuff is related to this at all.

I have to agree with snowman on this one. I've often contended that consistant use of technology alters the way our brains work. For example, when some of you were in school you used pen and paper to write reports. Then the typewriter came along so you used the typewriter to perform the same task. What do these two different modes of writing have in common? Both require you to form a thought and then a cohecive sentence in your head before you begin to write, lest you will be forced to re-type or re-write your sentence numerous times. Then here comes computers with word processors. This is my era. Now you can write stream of thought with no regard to the coheciveness of your sentence or it's place in the paragraph. You simply write the first thing that comes to mind and then cut here paste there and away you go. Thus, your brain is not trained to think through ideas fully before they are written or spoken.

I can see the same thing happening with math and calculators. If someone learns math just by using a calculator then they would not have the same understanding of the logic behind the computations. This, in my opinion, leaves the individual at a disadvantage as they cannot visualize the relationships in mathematical models, formulas etc.

I think the key word is 'just'. Sure if someone learns maths just by using a calculator they won't have any of the basic principles. Just as someone who learns to write via spell and grammar check will miss out. However, the use of calculators is not, in itself. some kind of mathematical evil that causes people to lose mathematical understanding. It's just a tool. It can be used wisely or not so. However it won't empty anyones head all by itself.

I see your point. But why is that necessarily bad? Even when I was composing my thoughts to pencil and paper, I was taught to just start brainstorming and writing down whatever came to mind. Most of the time something useful struck me and I pulled out another sheet of paper to compose more cohesive thoughts. With word processors it's the same deal, except I just have to hit Enter a few times to get a clean(ish) slate. It's the same process, different technology.

Good writing is independent of the medium. A electronic medium like web forums or myspace or whatever makes it easier for the lazy to write, but a good writing takes discipline, and a good writer will exercise it when he needs to. Word processors are an enabler, not a cause.

Calculators and spell check are not evil, but I think that extensive use of them during the developmental/learning stages is. Teach a kid to do math in his/her head on paper, then once you are sure they have the basics down let them use calcs for some math.

Even in the past the writing process involved multiple drafts before the finished product was ready. The word processor just made the process faster and easier.

When I was a loan officer before they started using laptops, I absolutely had to have a calculator AND keep on top of my algebra. When I wandered into an open house and a realtor introduced me to a prospective buyer, I had to perform right then and there. If some guy comes up and says, "I make $50k a year, have no debt and have $10k for a down payment and closing costs. What can I buy?" Well, you have to know algebra for that. Of course, there are plenty of computer programs now, probably even available on a PDA or Blackberry nowadays. But back then, I had to do it the old fashioned way. I actually enjoyed it and appreciated my edumacation more for it.

Calculators and computers are an addition to human thought, not a replacement.

If you can't do 10 times 15 without a calculator, you probably shouldnt use one unless you have some form of mental/physical illness that requires you to use one.

Students in math may need to be able to plot a sine curve or cosine curve without a calculator first. It might take them an hour to do one good graph. Once they know the basics of plotting those graphs they can graduate to using a calculator so they can compare 20 or 30 graphs in the same one hour time period. The calculator adds to their thought process, it does not need to replace it.

There are times students should use a calculator and their are times they should not. Knowing when, is the job of a good teacher.

Solve a differential equation with a calculator. Just go ahead and try. You can solve differential equations numerically, but you have to write a computer program to do so.

Derive the s. wave equations with a calculator. I don't think so. Solve the particle in a box problem using a calculator, or a pulsed system without LaPlace transforms or Fourier series. Calculators are not evil, they are a tool. THey can be used in math but they are NOT math. Math is a language, not a manipulation of just numbers.

The Ti-89 is a pretty good calculator for doing beginning Calculus problems. In fact many Advanced Placement Calculus curriculums integrate it into the course for covering topics such as functions, limits, derivatives, integration and Riemann sums. It will also do a lot of the problems in a beginning statistics course. If you don't have an idea what confidence intervals are it won't do you a lick of good however.

Imagine trying to do a simple compound interest problem without a calculator or table.

Who wants to do this by hand?
$1000 compounded quarterly at 3 % for 10 years.

1000(1 + (.03/4))^(4*10)?

If you can learn how to write the programs the calculator uses, then you are in a math class. If you use the calculator to work with you are most likely in an engineering class or business class, but not a math class. a portion of a math class may be devoted to learning to push buttons on the calculator, just like slide rules were once taught.

But I will go back to the differential equations. They are not on the calculator, might be on mathcad or something but first you have to set up the problem to begin with. In fact try doing an 8 th grade word problem with a calculator. The calculations are secondary to setting up the problem. Remember those lovely word problems? Or does it bring back nightmares?

Don't drink and derive...

alcohol and calculus do not mix...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled post...

Ahh word problems, my favorite. Some times called story problems. Sometimes asking for more than a numerical answer, a constructed response, in certain situations. Now that is what math is all about! That is what kids really need to know how to do, find the solution to a problem by logical thinking. Even if they have trouble with the memorized basic facts and rote followed algorithms, they need to know what they are trying to accomplish and how to get there. If using a calculator is helpful then do it, just don't get addicted - everything in moderation..........


In my 30+ years of teaching math I've had some pretty smart kids but nobody ever makes it thru any math class mistake free. Lots of simple rules linked together to make a more complex problem. The human mind is pretty fallible, Einstein is said to have had trouble making change for a dollar, Scientific American frequently publishes error corrections in a later month, Billions of dollars and we still blew up a space shuttle. Its great to try to memorize everything but nobody gets it 100 per cent, 100 percent of the time. Some people have better memories than others. The ones with poor memories still deserve to think about the higher level problems that a calculator can assist them in getting to. Once you learned to find the derivitive of a number the hard way and then they showed you an easier method. Did you still do them all the hard way? Once a student knows how to multiply matrices by hand shouldn't we let them do them on a calculator so they can move on to higher levels of matrix math? What is the use in making them multiply 8X8 matrices by hand? or what does it help to have kids multiply 8 digit numbers by 8 digit numbers by hand?

There is a limit somewhere - it is different for each person, We all need to reach for our limit and then go beyond. If a calculator or computer helps go beyond then we can solve even more complex problems.

BS

Right on.

Brilliant rebuttal. :rolleyes:

Exactly
as x -> ∞ I'm not completely against calculators. I believe they have their place, but I am against them being used too much so that the basics aren't learned first.