6 Minutes of The Tail of the Dragon

[Jims5543]

Looking forward to a meeting some other Pelicans next time.

Unfortunatly our signals got crossed and we never met up. I neded up on there very early in the morning and here is some footage of a road that has officially mind screwed me.

I need to get back there pronto and drive it lots more.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/21926FC5-0E31-4F89-9726-BB004FC84CE1.htm

[rattlsnak]

Rule #1, dont walk your hands around the wheel. It WILL bite you one day!

but cool video... Thanks for sharing. Theres a few people who I try and explain that road to!

[Dottore]

Sensational road - great video. Where is it?

[ronin]

Originally posted by rattlsnak
Rule #1, dont walk your hands around the wheel. It WILL bite you one day!...

true, but he's pretty much just cruisin'

and dig that cool porno music

[IROC]

I dozed off. What a boring road. There are some roads in East Tennessee so curvy that you can see your own tail lights when you go around the turn! :>)

Just kidding. I need to head up there and do the dragon...

Mike

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by rattlsnak
Rule #1, dont walk your hands around the wheel. It WILL bite you one day!

but cool video... Thanks for sharing. Theres a few people who I try and explain that road to!

*edit* (I am not insulted by your comment. Just curious as to what your answer will be. We all drive a little different. I feel you need to find what works for you. There is no right or wrong. Otherwise Alex Zinardi would not be driving right now.)

How will it bite me?

I have never had an off track excusion nor have I swapped ends ever on the track. Not even a tire off. I push plenty hard too pacing Ferrari 430's on the track.

This is a habit developed from driving my RX-7. 10" Hoosier slicks and 6° of caster makes you look for your best leverage point. I will argue with you all day long over your rule. I had a "pro" drive my RX-7 he kept his hands planted and at one point was fully crossed over mid turn. All I could think of was if the car stepped out (which it will do without warning) and is screwed.

I had a driving instructor yell at me about the hand shuffle too. Again, it works for me. I have also been told not to wrap my thumbs through the wheel and I have observed "pros" on TV doing it all the time.

I'll keep shuffling. It has saved my ass a couple of times already.

[CarreraDan]

Great video Jim, watching it brings back memories of my fall run. If anyone wants do run it again in a few weeks I will be ready--have to fix the CV joints and rebuild the calipers.

Thanks again for the video Jim, makes me wish I had a camcorder for the next time. Did you do the Cherohalla Skyway too or just the Dragon? If we get a group together we should hit the Cherohalla Skyway since the speed limit is higher and it has much less traffic then pick up the Dragon in Venore back to Robbinsville. If anyone wanted to do a side trip I really want to go tour the Sea Ray plant at Venore and see where my other baby was made sometime.

[rattlsnak]

I meant it more of a casual comment, not as a instuctional comment, BUT, since you asked, Ive been instructing for over 15 years with various organizations, and have been to countless instructor clinics taught by pros where, as i said, Rule #1 is no hand shuffling. Believe me over the years ive ridden with ALL types, and IF you ever do get into a situation where you get sideways, you will NOT know which way is forward. The guy you mentioned with his arms fully crossed simply has to 'unwind' his arms in a fraction of a second and he is straight. (wheels) Theres obviously more to it than that, and i'm certainly not one who came up with this style, but you will become a better driver if you dont shuffle. In our region here, at D/Es we are told from day one to simply not let students do that.

Certainly not trying to argue, just telling you whats the standard out there. Do it or not, thats up tp you..

[5axis]

I had to share with my two wheel friends.
And

Dude - Did he get that "album" from Glen Quagmiere?

Great vid of a fun road. I hope to get back soon either on two or four wheels.

[Tervuren]

Hrm, talking about shuffle steer - I say its situational. When your arms are crossed, all you have to do is keep the motion with one arm, and uncross the other.

I'll shuffle steer if I want to get the wheel over realy realy fast, alternating which and is doing the work, using this method, you can hit full lock realy quick, you just have to not get mixed up with where you are. Shuffle steering is fine if you are wanting maximum precision in a narrow area as well - which is what he was doing.

I trained myself to not shuffle steer, then trained myself to do it, and leanred what worked for me in different situations. For understeer situations, I prefer shuffle steering, but with oversteer I prefer to keep both hands in the same place on the wheel. If I'm unfamiliar with whats going to happen, I keep both hands on the wheel - as this can cover a wider range of situations.

I personaly like Vic Elford's book - Porsche Performance driving. Fun and informative read. Almsot everything is illustrated by some story from his racing career.

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by rattlsnak
I meant it more of a casual comment, not as a instuctional comment, BUT, since you asked, Ive been instructing for over 15 years with various organizations, and have been to countless instructor clinics taught by pros where, as i said, Rule #1 is no hand shuffling. Believe me over the years ive ridden with ALL types, and IF you ever do get into a situation where you get sideways, you will NOT know which way is forward. The guy you mentioned with his arms fully crossed simply has to 'unwind' his arms in a fraction of a second and he is straight. (wheels) Theres obviously more to it than that, and i'm certainly not one who came up with this style, but you will become a better driver if you dont shuffle. In our region here, at D/Es we are told from day one to simply not let students do that.

Certainly not trying to argue, just telling you whats the standard out there. Do it or not, thats up tp you..

I am not arguing here either. I have had this discussion in person with National Champ AXers and instructors at DE's. At the autocross level I am as fast as if not faster than most Natl Champs. Their attitude was basically, its not the best way but it seems to work well. You cannot argue with success.

As far as finding center on the wheel. With my rx-7 no matter what the car is doing, and I mean that, all you have to do is, gasp!, let go of the wheel and it goes to center. It fights you so hard you know where center is even if you do not let go, its when the wheel stops fighting with you.


Here is an oversteer situation in my RX-7, see how fast it lets go and without warning. There is no time to think about if my hands are in the right place. Maybe my instinct is different I do not know. I know that when this happened I was more worried about the instructor freaking out than the actual oversteer.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/53753592-1C03-42AA-B42C-B1A44DFAA0C9.htm

Same track in turn 1 (at end of long straight) I oversteer and correct, I never even knew this happened until I saw the video afterwards.
http://videos.streetfire.net/search/moroso/0/4591C344-3A0B-4923-AB3B-54FEA9C28A98.htm

At an Autocross (last run in next video at the 1:40 point of video) I loose it, the back end snaps out. This was destined to be an end swapper but I was able to keep the backend, well, back there, and bring her around. I was off course for the run but at least did not loose it completely. (FWIW- The first Autocross run after the driving school run was the FTD for that event that day. The next fast car was a AP Cobra (I run in BP a class below and I am supposed to be slower) and it was 0.3 secoonds behind me.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/378AFA88-A3F1-4884-8A4E-ABAB7A5B799B.htm


Like I said before there is a cardinal rule to NEVER wrap you thumbs through the wheel. I cannot count how many time I have seen Speed Challange drivers and other pros do that.

I firmly believe that if you have a good sense of where your wheel is at and you can find center with ease there is no hard in shuffling at all. At a track like Miami its almost impossible to not shuffle there are a lot of 2nd gear turns that have you tuning your wheel further than you ever have at any other track.

Before you ask, I am new to open track so I detune the car. (Low Boost) I am not out there on an ego trip. I am out there to learn how to drive fast on the track. Anyone can go fast in a straight line. (high boost) I am more worried about driving line.

I am not trying to convert you to shuffle, as a matter of fact I agree, keeping your hands in one place is probably optimum. I am trying to shuffle less. Unfortunatly I have developed a habit (notice I did not say bad) that works for me with my car. I am trying to shuffle less though but unfortunatly that car (RX-7) with its 10" slicks, 6° of caster, and no power steering takes a lot of muscle power to steer. Everyone that has driven it either hates it or loves it, the steering that is.

[rattlsnak]

I wasnt even think about auto x, thats a whole different game! You just about have to do it to make it around some of those tight turns.! I was referring to track time. I have been to several tracks around the south/northeast, and i havent been to one yet that requires more than a 90 degree turn of the wheel in any turn, as in your hands go from 10-2 to 1-5 or 7-11.

In your first video you can exactly see what i mean. Right after the slide, look where your hands are. About 2-5, and your going straight! Do you think you have much more range to go more to the right? If your hands were at 10-2 at turn in, all you have to do is steer up (straight). Dont think of it as a hand function, think of it as a brain function. It takes critical 'time' to decipher where your hands are, and then where the car is going. When you leave your hands in the same place, its automatic. One less thin to think about.

Theres obviously alot more to it, bit thats just what ive learned over the years...

good recovery, by the way!

[Tervuren]

Well... we only use a smidge of what the brain is capable of.

[Jims5543]

Originally posted by rattlsnak
I wasnt even think about auto x, thats a whole different game! You just about have to do it to make it around some of those tight turns.! I was referring to track time. I have been to several tracks around the south/northeast, and i havent been to one yet that requires more than a 90 degree turn of the wheel in any turn, as in your hands go from 10-2 to 1-5 or 7-11.

In your first video you can exactly see what i mean. Right after the slide, look where your hands are. About 2-5, and your going straight! Do you think you have much more range to go more to the right? If your hands were at 10-2 at turn in, all you have to do is steer up (straight). Dont think of it as a hand function, think of it as a brain function. It takes critical 'time' to decipher where your hands are, and then where the car is going. When you leave your hands in the same place, its automatic. One less thin to think about.

Theres obviously alot more to it, bit thats just what ive learned over the years...

good recovery, by the way!

Take a look again and see where my left hand ends up after I recover. It all happened VERY fast and you ardly see me move them. My left hand is at 3 oclock on the wrong side of the wheel. But, I am not off the track and not in a wall. Call if lucky if you want. I know the car and know what it takes to keep it on the track.

I agree MOST tracks you can keep them planted. The Dragon on the other hand had sharper turns than any Autocross I have been to. On the Dragon you can throw all the rules out the window. I have never sawed at my wheel like that enywhere.

AutoX and track are not different games, be good at Autocross and you'll be great on the track. So many track guys dismiss AX as a beginners game I built my foundation of driving skills from AX and they have served me well on the track. I think the Dragon is beeter compared to an AX than a track anyway except you have cars, bikes and trucks flying at you. What a rush!