Bigrubber, You seem like a nice, rational person that someone can have an actual discussion with, and I'm going to take a WAG that you are a 1st or 2nd generation immigrant w/ quite a bit of bias due to personal or family stake in our immigration policies, or more specifically lack of enforcement of laws. No problem there, I have countless acquaintences that snuck into the country who are not thugs or losers and are good people that I like. That is of course what makes this whole argument so sticky, we are talking about people and there are human concerns involved.

As for the "shooting trespassers" sentiment, it's nothing more than someone expressing their frustration at our own govt. for not doing what we pay them (a lot) to do.

I am curious, as I always am when listening to the other side of the immigration debate, which is basically the "non-enforcement" side, do you believe in a completely open border w/ Mexico? If not, at what point do you stop them from coming? 50 million people? 100 million? I am completely serious, how would you make it fair? How do you tell anyone they cannot come here when 10s of millions have been let in? Do you believe that anyone from Mexico should have the legal right to cross back and forth to the USA at will? Move here? Use US services, as long as someone in the family is pushing a lawnmower for cash and sending 1/2 back to their relatives deep in Mexico?

Hopefully you will not write me off as a racist for asking these questions, (and you seem too thoughtful for that), I really want to know what you think and your answer to these questions. TIA. :cool:

Dennis: Thank you for not taking what I say to it's extreme, your partially correct as to my american history, so I am a bit biased since I have seen first hand the good people that enter this country and work their a$$ses off just for the sake of survival, not to "take" from anyone.

But back to your question - My opinion is as follows.....

I don't beleive in open door policy, I think entrance to the United States should be based on current need for that persons skill or proffesion. Being bilingual (in English) should be also a criteria, maybe not fluent but a minimum standard of some sort.

As to the number allowed, again based on current economic need.

Now those that are here already without proper documentation, let's get them documented and get them in school to learn English, make them part of society and have them contribute with income tax.

I respect your opinion, (because it is honest), but do not completely agree w/ it. I would be against deporting illegal immigrants if it meant sending them back to somewhere they would be imprisoned or killed, for instance, but deporting Mexicans would mean simply that most of them drive a few hundred miles to become the richest people in whatever little village they came from and then we could start w/ a functioning immigration system and secure border w/ guest workers, etc...

Well I'm not against your idea, I think the way they have it writen now is decent, 5 years here or more get legalized, 2 years or more pay large fines, 2 years or less get sent back and have to go through the process.

What about those from other countries who have broken no laws, have filled out tons of paperwork, had heath exams, fees that can be a huge part of their income, interviews and etc, etc, etc. And patiently wait. What about them? The whole process had been hijacked by others with their own agenda.

I'm not sure whom your reffering to herw, who has hijacked the process?

The problem with this is there's no way to tell if they've been here 5 years or 5 hours, unless you want to go by the date on their fake drivers license.

Sure there is, receipts from rental agreements, bank statements, medical records, religious records, school records, driving records, payroll records, witnesses ect.

Those that jump the line and demand anmesty. Those following the law (and patiently waiting) have no voice and very few advocates.:(

Uh.....ok, they are still undocumented, so they are not part of the "process" that you are reffering to. So if it's back loged it's probably lack of funding.

No, they are criminal invaders. They are dangerous interlopers. They are sometimes child molesters, thieves, murderers and gang members. Our jails attest to these assertions. Since all these things are true we need mass deportation and for them to enter through the legal channels, so we can account for and reject the criminals from those who honestly want to become American...Without the law we are lawless and vulnerable.

I don't get the logic. If you break the law for over 5 years you get to stay, but if you have only broken the law for 2 weeks you get sent home?

By that logic Ted Bundy should be released from jail and jaywalkers put on death row...

We should model our immigration laws on Mexico's.

They choose not to go the legal route, and if they know that they will be punished and even killed, and that they may not survive committing the crime, maybe they will stop. You, sir are the unreal one, many of us don't believe in rewarding those who break the law and aren't willing to burden the cost to conform the United States to fit them, not the other way around.

Can't you just feel the love??

Let's humor this idea for a second,

let's say you are as heartless as you say you are, you shoot a starving mother of 2 children who are close to death of dehydration from crossing a desert for over 5 days with nothing but the shirt on their back. All they are coming for is the chance to get out of misery and live in one of the few countries with real freedoms of expression, religion, and all that is good about America including survival, no more hungry nights.


Let's say the news gets out and you scare 10 familys from crossing -

Was it worth it to you? Can you really pull the trigger or are you all talk?

Now you scared away 10 family's and you live with the guilt of pulling the trigger, meawhile, there are still thousands of STARVING family's that will keep risking their lifes because they have nothing left to loose back home. This is their final frontier. Is your soul that cold to kill?

(Till the the day you experience true starvation, then tell me you wont break a law to survive and to give your child another day of life)


One more thing, look up and see how many Non-citizens have given up their lives for the Country they wish to call "theirs" over in Iraq. Does their sacrifice of life cover any hardship you may have "suffered" because he and his family are here?

Finally ask yourself, who's land are you really on?

Nuff said

Gee, I'm sorry, my father brought me up to obey and respect the Rule of Law using your reasoning, I guess that if you don't have enough money for a nice Porsche, it is OK to steal one from someone who does. When my family, on my fathers side, immigrated LEGALLY no one gave them anything, and being Irish, well, they were looked down on, but through hard work, the family overcame, poverty, racism, ect, and did it without breaking the law. People are responsable for their actions, and you encouraging people to break the law and sneak into the USA, you are as good as killing those who die or are shot. No one here, not me or anyone else has a problem with legal immigrants, it is the ILLEGAL ones that we don't want. There is a LEGAL way to come to the USA, millions do it every year, and rewarding those who came in illegally is a slap to the face of everyone who who followed the law to become citizens. I really hope they round up the illegals and those aiding them and deport or lock them up tommorrow!! If they have been here 5 years, fine them for back taxes, fine those who employed them, send them back with a mark so they can't legally return here without facing prison. Again the problem isn't with immigrants, just the illegal ones!!!

Since on my mothers side, we Cherokee blood in our veins, I guess my own!!!

You make it sounds so like it's so easy to come into the U.S. legally, if it were you think they would risk their lives?

Jeez man, use your head, it's a matter of survival.

Obivously your family was one of the lucky ones, that is all that makes your story any different from the others, where I came from it takes over 5 years to get a Visa, that 's after thousands of dollars in fees and with no guarantee of getting in. You think this is an option for those people in poverty in 3rd world country's? It's not!!! It's either make a an attempt for a better life on the other side of the fence or starve every night and watch your children starve with no hope due to the lack of education and oportunity. Then to top it all off many are suppressed by the government, no human rights, no "real" freedoms, corruption at every level of government.