Energy independency

[Moneyguy1]

Two articles in today's news.

The first is about Brazil where they are nearly completely independent from foreign oil through the development (over 30 years) of ethanol. Seventy-five percent of the cars sold in Brazil since 2003 are flexfuel vehicles. Kinda makes you wonder why Brazil saw the writing on the wall after the 1975 oil crisis and we didn't. There are quite a few administrations that have let us, the public, down. Shame on them. All of them.

The second is in my home town. Just north of Tucson, in a place called Red Rock, they have put into operation a 1.3 megawatt solar electrical system that heats oil to 540 degrees and uses this heat to create steam and run a turbine. It provides power to just over 200 residences and while small, it is an indication that this can be done economically since it was funded by a utility. Kudos to the private sector!!

What the hell...We're all doomed.......

[legion]

With oil prices where they are, many previously uneconomical "alternative" energy options may now be worthwhile. The fuel mileage from ethanol kills me, though.

[red-beard]

540 F? Geezus that will produce crap thermal effciency.

[red-beard]

Gasoline = 125K BTU/Gal, Ethanol = 77K BTU/Gal

See my comments on Ethanol production in other threads.

[legion]

When are we going to put MTBE back in gasoline?

[red-beard]

Legislation is required...

[Moneyguy1]

red

They addressed that problem. The cost of the ethanol is less than 50% of the gasoline cost, making it cheaper per mile. Since they do not have to import it, their economic dependence on Venezuela and the ME is reduced to close to zero.

As for the AZ project, that heat is totally solar. Converting 540 degrees f to to steam via a heat exchanger isn't really that inefficient.

Just as a personal aside, the US sits on an unlimited source of low cost energy which would produce no greenhouse gases...Yellowstone!!

Thermal energy..the forgotton energy source...Just ask the Icelanders with they year round hot baths and zero cost heating and electricity!! Yeah..they have occasional lava flows..I know...But that isn't the result of the power generation, it would happen there anyway!!

[red-beard]

Bob, what you have to understand is we do not have unlimted alternative resources.

Unless the alternative is Nuclear. Then we are "virtually' unlimited.

[legion]

If everyone used on the planet used nuclear, would we have enough uranium?

[red-beard]

Yes. We have about 500 years of proven reserves. There is a lot more out there. IN 500 years, we will move to the next energy source.

[Moses]

Originally posted by red-beard
Unless the alternative is Nuclear. Then we are "virtually' unlimited.

China is building 30 cutting-edge nuclear pebble reactors. Helium cooling, virtually melt down proof. Amazing technology. The spent fuel (rdioactive waste) is mixed in heavily leaded glass blocks. The only possible exposure is from the surfaces of the block. Even if the block is fractured, the surface area is only slightly increased and there is no wholesale environmental threat. The blocks can be safely buried. They are seismically stable.

By the time we get short of uranium, we will have fusion reactors.

[Moneyguy1]

On a cosmic scale, we are not even a "Type 1" civilization yet since we "rape" the world and burn things to create energy.

Red..I would respectfully posit that thermal energy would be virtually unlimited. (FAR more than 500 years worth!!) All we have to do is find a far more efficient way to store generated power for future use. Batteries and capacators are far too limited....

Imagine...a thread without any rancor!!!

Unbelievable

(but it's still early)

[artplumber]

There are plenty of interesting proposals: eg/ geosynch or polar solar array with microwave beam to receiving station. All have major tech hurdles, and or vulnerabilities. Not to mention the litigation issues when some idiot flies into the microwave beam.

[Don Ro]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
There are quite a few administrations that have let us, the public, down. Shame on them. All of them.

My first thought...
'Wondering who let who down?
Where has the public outcry been? I haven't seen/heard much outcry.
I sure haven't been publicly outcrying...have you?
If so, what did you do, say...and to whom, when, and where?
Have you been pressing your representatives about this throughout all those administrations?

Like I said...my first thought.

[alf]

Originally posted by legion
With oil prices where they are, many previously uneconomical "alternative" energy options may now be worthwhile. The fuel mileage from ethanol kills me, though.

That is one good thing from the rise in oil prices. Energy choices are largely driven by economic reality and maybe now the US will start to apply our technology to solve the dependency on oil. Managing the change will be challenging anc cause lots of friction.

[on-ramp]

I suppose the Brazilian government is smarter than our government. But then again, they don't want oil companies to profit and don't have "special interests" in high oil prices.

[Moses]

Wikipedia has agreat little article on solar energy. Even harvesting energy at 15% efficiency, the sun provides a LOT of power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power

As an aside, and I DO NOT intend to hijack the thread, we have spent about a TRILLION dollars in Iraq. Think of the advances in energy technology that could have bought. The estimated cost of Lyndon Johnsons "great society" programs is estimated to be north of 7 trillion. Politicians seem uninterested in real energy policy.

[turbo6bar]

Where were these threads when oil was under $30/barrel 5-7 years ago? Energy independence was as much off the government's agenda as it was off our minds.

The amount of oil consumed by the US as a percentage of the world, is large. 23%, I believe. Alternative energy helps us cut that percentage, but we also need to push the conservation side, as well. The ever-growing 3800 SF McMansions aren't the step in the right direction.

[turbo6bar]

April 21, 2003, crude was $30.76 a barrel. I don't think anyone could honestly say crude oil would be 130% higher after 3 years.

[Moneyguy1]

Don:

There were those screaming and yelling about what finally is happening, but they were drowned out, (I hate to use such a hackneyed term) by "Special Interests." People at the top decision making levels do not pump their own gas, they do not pay their own utility bills. Others do those tasks for them, and the cost is inconsequential. Back a few decades one City I consulted for, got rid of their "full size" police fleet and purchased Chevy Novas with police packages, and the staff cars were Plymouth Horizons.

The old comedy movie "Mad Mad World" had a line in their theme song back in 1964:

"Our traffic is so congested, mass confusion on wheels

But Detroit is adroit, what they'll do in Detroit

Is build bigger automobiles..."

So came the 70s, birth of the true compact, influx of foreign competition and within 10 years the entire episode was forgotten, the higher prices of the day were accepted, and the industry went back to its old formula of bigger is better. Lessons learned? NADA.

Fast forward to present day. 3 and 4 ton behemoths, people willing to sacrifice their first born to fuel these monsters, claiming "We need our big vehicles!! We have two kids and three dogs, and have to tow a motor home, two ATVs, a boat, the Subaru, and our emergency cache of bicycles."

I made an observation in another thread. In 1943, the Allies realized that the war could be shortened if they deprived Germany of oil and oil products, so they started a campaign of blowing up refineries and iol fields. So, even the last gasp of the bulge saw many, many German fighting vehicles left 'in situ' because they had no fuel. I find the parallel chilling.

Moses, the options are many and varied. Is the amount spent in the ME the most effective use of those funds? In the long run, will the events of the past fopur years really change anything? I hope the cost is justified in the long run, but I, personally, would have opted for an Apollo or Manhattan type project.

I just pray it is not too late.