Thats sort of what is happening here, innit? There are those here that lack the critcially faculty to process some of the ideas in this thread. But maybe some of the real Americans here, those that value concepts like "inalienable rights" will research for themsleves what is happening in Guantanmo and form their own views.

It doesnt matter how far out in the country you live, or how big the bucket of sand you choose to put your head in, these things are still being done in the name of the citizens of the United States.

As is often said "America is an idea". Is torture, confinement and the denial of natural justice the idea that the post 9/11 USA wishes to represent to the world?

Obviously.

If 'themsleves' did some searching they'd find not much has happened in 'Guantanmo' and it's all phony media BS or lies from the so called 'human rights' organizations.

No, the above is a lie.

Torture of prisoners at Guantanamo was carried out, and continues to be carried out today. Abu Graib remains a torture center in Iraq, and there is at least one US government run torture center in Afghanistan.

Rendition of prisoners continues as well.

What we don't know, yet, is how many prisoners are being held at other remote, military access only installation such as Shemya, Alaska, Johnston Island, and Diego Garcia.

More faith based thinking? Or do you have some substantition for this?

It is fact that people have been held for up to 4 years without charge or trial.

It is fact that in Gunatanaomo they are shackled and held in solitary for 22 hours a day.

It is fact that prisoners have been tortured and killed in the hands of the US military.

It is fact that rendition is occuring right now.

It is fact that the US has snatched people from allies like Italy (Italy is currently trying to extradite a number of CIA agnts form the US)

What is it that you are actually disputing?

Yeah, sounds like life is tough down there.

The sources of your information. Newsweek and the New York Times have already shown their capability to create bogus stories.

Fastpat and stuartj - have you started working on your 'Free Moussaoui!' posters for the next Berkeley protest march yet?

Although Im not believer in capital punishment, I am surprised he is not going to swing. I am all for due process, 914.

Its a shame you seem unable to stand back and take rational look at this, 914. You may not agree with me, but it would be interesting to see you get past the facile, Mul-like arguments you are trotting out.

Stand back and take a look at yourself. It's a shame you cannot distinguish unintentional acts done by our good military - those who defend your freedoms - and the most vile, reprehensible, deliberate acts of evil men. To you they are a blur, because the intentions or reasons behind them don't matter. You only see death. You've been brainwashed by the barrage of mainstream media propaganda and Hollywood films that will only portray this country as evil or incompetant, and they will go to all lengths to do it including making it up. How else to explain "the rest of world is having a great deal of difficulty telling the difference between the actions of terrorists and the action of the US govt." to use your words? Does it help when Newsweek publishes a bogus story about the Koran being flushed down a toilet? Or the NYT publishes a front page story about an Abu Ghurayb prisoner, but later buries the 'correction' deep inside the paper that they had been taken by a con artist? Then there's all the phony stories out of Iraq by 'journalists' and distributed by the press as truth. Fact checking doesn't matter to them.

I walked through Arlington Cemetery a few days ago, and read the notes left by family members on the photos of those killed in Iraq in one of the memorials. I had a hard time holding back the tears. I know our country and our military is good, as I haven't been brainwashed by the same trash you read and watch everyday. Screw your liberal BS whining and apologizing for those goddam throatcutters.

So you believe the US military can do/does no wrong. Fair enough. But at least acknowledge that this is faith based thinking.

Because it surely does.

You walked aroiund Arlington. Very emotional stuff. Perhpas you might reflect on how and why those bured there came to be killed in a far off land. Which the US invaded. You might also relfect on the fact that for every dead Americxan, 10 Iraqi have been killed.

Just by the way, 914.

"the wind blew his urine through the vent and into a cell block. "

Perfectly understandable. This could happen to anyone. Easy mistake to make. And regarding the obscenity written in another Koran. Its equally likey that the prisoner did this himself.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
June 4/05

US military confirms Guantanamo Koran abuse

US military officials have confirmed that American jailers at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba mishandled and abused the Islamic holy book, the Koran.

A newly completed military inquiry has found US personnel splashed a Koran with urine, kicked it, stepped on it and soaked it with water.

The inquiry was investigating five cases of alleged mishandling of the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, which houses mainly foreign Muslims suspected of terrorism.

In the incident involving urine, which took place this past March, Southern Command (responsible for the Guantanamo Bay jail) said a guard left his post and urinated near an air vent and "the wind blew his urine through the vent" and into a cell block.

It said a detainee told guards the urine "splashed on him and his Koran."

The statement said the detainee was given a new prison uniform and Koran, and that the guard was reprimanded and given duty in which he had no contact with prisoners.

Southern Command said a civilian contractor interrogator, who was later fired, apologised in July 2003 to a detainee for stepping on his Koran.

In August 2003, prisoners' Korans became wet when night-shift guards had thrown water balloons in a cell block, the statement said. In February 2002, guards kicked a prisoner's Koran, it added.

In the fifth "confirmed incident" of mishandling a Koran, Southern Command said a prisoner in August 2003 complained that "a two-word obscenity" had been written in English in his Koran.

Southern Command said it was "possible" a guard had written the words but "equally possible" the prisoner himself had done it.

Southern Command released its findings on a Friday night.

-Reuters

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200506/s1384449.htm

From an individual that votes for infanticide profiteers and the politicians paid by them, I find your selective outrage merely gratuitous and agenda driven.

Abortion is murder.

If you had your way Saddam's toddler prisons would be occupied, the rape rooms bloody, the mass graves filling rapidly, and a tyrant and his terrorist friends that much closer to delivering biological weapons to the United States.

In all the history of the Middle East there has never been a greater force for good, liberation, freedom and democracy...It has never happened before. Bush and Republicans have done more for the towelees than even their false god, Mohammed.

I think that pretty mcuh the full grab bag of Xtian fundamenatlist abstracts you have managed to work into this discussion now Mul.

Why is it acceptable for the citizens of other countries to be denied the basic rights that would be afforded any American (John Lindt, for example) citizen, Mul?

(We are nearly there....)

They are not American citizens. They are murderous terrorists. That is who we hold. They are treated better, to our detriment, than any nation has ever treated enemy combatants.

(You are so far from reality it is dangerous...)

Well, Mul, I dont think Ive written anything in this thread that cant be supported or doesnt have at least some basis in fact. You may dispute the facts, ofcourse, but thats what discussion is about. You, on the other hand, and just off the the top of the head, have invoked the Holy Hosts, called Islam "Devil Worship", and me a "child of satan", stated that Gitmo inamtes are coddled, that they should be dipped in pigfat and set on fire, etc etc.

(So clearly its me that has a problem with reality. I see that now. Thanks.)

But anyway, we get to the heart of the issue.

1. "They are not US citizens."

So therefore its acceptable to deny them basic human rights, those guaranteed to US citizens. Subtext, they are subhuman, or more correctly, sub American.

For those that may care, this notion is doing grave and perhpas irrepairable damage to the US internationally.

2. "They are murderous terrorists."

You have stated in this thread that you believe this because the US military so asserts. Well, they may well be. But its been established that the military has told the odd whopper about Iraq and Afghansiatn. So lets try them and find out. Lets hang them or stick em back in Gitmo them if they are. Whaddya say? I'll bring the popcorn.

3. They are treated better, to our detriment, than any nation has ever treated enemy combatants.

Unsupportable and not even worth arguing about.

Its been fun kicking your arse Mul. Lets do it again sometime.

From the party of FDR, who wholesale destroyed the lives of the 'Japs', including women and children, I find your ruse of outrage less than convincing. From a supporter of the UN, the collection of murderous tyrants and child-molesters in peace-keeper drag, I find your arguments suspect.

It is your types that undermined Vietnam, promising that all would be peacy if we withdrew. It is your types that lied about American troops, spat on them, and made sure they stayed traumatized until it became politically expedient to hail them for John Kerry's campaign's sake. It is your type that ushered in the genocide of Indochina, the reeducation camps, the boat people and the subsequent communist slave state of Vietnam.

The current strategy of leftist diversion and disinformation is intended to turn Iraq into another Vietnam. You are the enemy within. You are intentionally undermining the war effort, realizing that you aid and abet terrorists and those that harbor them. You and your comrades spread your hate across the globe and then decry Bush and America for the false perception you sew. You pour poison in the world's ear, and in the American people's ear.

Don't you see, Stewie, they hate us because of you. They hate your homosexual rights, they hate your promiscuity, they hate your drugs, they hate your abortion...They hate your liberalism...Do you not find it strange, even suspicious, that you align and protect the worst humanity has to offer?...Do you not find it strange that you find fault with American military, when those whom you are sympathetic to are murderers, abusers of women, homosexual murderers, killers of innocents and those who would like nothing more than your death gurgle?

You said it, Stewie...You have captured your argument perfectly.

Care to support this?...Or is it your wishful opinion? I know it is imagery your bretheren are feeding the world, but it is untrue propaganda intended to evoke the belief you would have the world misperceive about America.

You've still had your arse kicked.