Creationism question...
 

Background:
Okay, so there is a conservative local christian university that has their own radio station... and I listen to it sometimes. The other day they had a speaker who said that there is nothing in the bible to support the theory of life on other planets, and that we are unique among Gods creations.

And then today I was sittin' on the can and thinking about those statements. Now I want to pose a few questions that came to mind, but I want to ask them one at a time for the purpose of developing the discussion.

Please approach these questions from a creationist / biblical view. I'm not interested in evolution, natural selection, or other theories... I'm trying only to dig around in creationism at this time.

Question 1: Did God create EVERYTHING - and I mean EVERYTHING: From dirt and skeeters to planets, space, the universes, etc.

If you believe in God ... maybe

From the biblical veiw as per the bible. "God created the heavens and Earth." I think that covers it from that angle.

If you believe in God (I do) the answer is yes.

I will see if I can dig up a bible quote on the Internet.

Create the preception of reality - yes. Actually build something like you would in monster garage? That is stupid. Anyone who believes that there is a big guy in a white robe, long beard sitting on a throne way up in the 'heavens' should wake up and take a good long look at why they beleive in that and not the Easter Bunny or Santa.

It is like the color blue. Show me blue? You can show me something that is blue or even draw up the electro-magnetic spectrum and indicate at what vibrational state blue occurs but you can not sho me BLUE. We all agree what blue is and that is that. It is agreed upon. God is of the stuff of that. Lets not animate it.

Now, does Santa exist? Yep - every Dec 24 to 25 my Wife and I are 'Santa'. For all intents and purposes Santa lives through us. And why would God be any different? God lives through us if we so choose to accept that.

To think there is a technician of sorts ruins the whole thing and becomes a laughable mess not worthy of consideration.

Here ya go:

Genesis 1
1.In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2.And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3.And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4.And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5.And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6.And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7.And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8.And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9.And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10.And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

I got $500 that says this turns into 40+ pages if Christian bashing.

How about $500 for those chuckleheads who take this ***** literal as opposed to the enlightened ones who look at the Bible and the teachings of Christ as poetic instruction?

Carl Sagan, most astronomers, and physicist believe(d) that everything came out of noting at a single point in time.

To contemplate nothing is to contemplate infinity then timelessness - pretty difficult, no make that impractical with our linear thinking. It doesn't work very well. You’re trying to solve a non-Euclidian geometry problem with Pythagoras’ theorems. It doesn't work like that.

Lubemaster is a big stinky poopy pants!

Re: Creationism question...
 

There is also nothing in the Bible prohibiting life on other planets.

I'm not sure if the speaker was taking the Bible as meaning that God was a being or a concept, but the way he made his point leads me to believe that his God is an individual being - a creator.

And I intend none of this as Christian bashing, though maybe a bit skeptical of the speakers statement.

Anyway, on to the next question:
Does God have a purpose for all of his creations?
(Even if it is a purpose that we may not understand or appreciate - like the purpose of skeeters...)

Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it?

Short answer is yes, God created everything.

I personally don't believe that the Bible has anything to do with life on other planets. Far be it from humans to tell God what he can and cannot do.

I went to a huge Christian school from the 5th through the 8th grade, Pensacola Christion School. It's really big, kindergarten through college, they print their own text books that look like any other text book from any other school. It's pretty impressive, anyway. From a Biblical point of view, God created everything.

I also remember that one of the teachers once said that the Bible says that God had other followers somewhere else (implying 'another planet'). Since that one time was the only instance that I've ever heard of anyone presenting that the Bible may allude to aliens, I'm not sure what I think the Bible says. I've never read the whole thing. Personally I believe that there's no reason to assume that there aren't aliens. I don't think the Bible states that there isn't life on other planets, so that shouldn't mean that it's not true. I'd love to see the reference that the teacher was talking about when she made that statement.

Here's a more specific link. I haven't tried to download, so I don't know how big they are.

http://podcast.coasthillschurch.org/index.php?d1=shows&d2=sermons&d3=davinci

Not exactly. The Big Bang didn't start from "nothing" (that's the biblical view - "ex nihilo"), but from very densely packed material. Everything was there, it was just really close together.

And yes, pretty much everyone (who studies this stuff) accepts this theory these days. The evidence for the Big Bang is pretty good.

Mike

(look ma, no bashing!!!)

Well yes it would seem odd, until you realize that the Bible was written by men. Inspired by God yes, but ultimately written by men.

Now if I were God (which I am not...I'd have to be a liberal to think that :p ), I would probably have to dumb things down to make it make sense to humans. Therefore I personally don't believe the universe was created in seven 24 hour periods. I think that was probably the best way God could put it so we could get our puny minds around it. Plus, who is to say how long one of God's days is?? Maybe a God day is 100 million years...I dunno.

The Bible is made up of 66 books, some poetical, some literal.
For example Psalms and Proverbs are obviously poetical.

On the other hand other parts are pretty direct as in the books of the law. Although they do need to be taken in the context that they were written thousands of years ago in a society with very different standards.

Be careful what you view as mainstream church, just because they have a large membership doesn't make them right.

Couldn't God create evolution?

We humans are certainly busy destroying most of Gods creations of life diversity, and have created global political structures with other humans speaking exclusively for [him].

Multiple universes, DNA, matter/energy transitions weren't mentioned either, but that doesn't mean The Bible or religeon in general isn't an applicable lifeguide.

I can't confirm this but I have been told Islam is the fastest growing religion... would you consider them "mainstream"?

That is myth...Christianity is the largest and fastest growing religion. We are in deep doo-doo if Islam is.

From CNN:

You should also check out the birth rates for major Christian countries (i.e. Italy) versus ROW.

I don't trust CNN's analysis. I am not saying they are wrong, but I think their philosophical biases infect every aspect of their news reporting. These are the same folk that concealed the horrors of the Saddam Hussein regime for access to him, pre-invasion.

So you make a claim, utterly unsubstantiated, and uncited. "Christianity is fastest growing religion in the world."

Another poster provides and cites evidence to refute this, and you immeadiately dismiss the source as unreliable.

Is there no end to your faith based reasoning, Mul?

So I did some more searching. Some claim that Scientology, Mormon, Wicca, et al are the fastest growing religions. As a marketing guy, I can segment data sufficiently to prove most any point. The fastest growing religion might be "none".

There's lots of Islam PR sites that subscribe to the Islam fastest growing stance. And lots of sites that refute this claim. But so far, I've not come across an independent scholarly study to cite.

Growth Rate is the statement. I believe the average births per Islam following household is something like 4+, where for Christian households, it's like 1.x. Throw in conversion and it's not out of the question that the rate of growth (not absolute growth) is faster.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of extremes of anything. For me, Timothy McVeigh is no less a terrorist than Mohamed Atta.

Back on point - Years and years ago I tried to rationalize Genesis with Science. Was a day a 100 million years and all that. In the end, Science tries to explain; Faith requires no explanation, just belief.

I honestly don't know. But I do know that most religions try to teach their follower's to be good people - do unto others, et al. In their quest to convince people to be good, a really bad alternative is often explored.

Candidly, I think blind belief that a being created everthing with one wave of his noodle is easy. Trying to challenge that belief while adhering to the "be good people" principles takes courage and intellect.

Right fella, knock it off. One wave of his noodle, eh? I know where youre coming from and I dont much like it.

Yours in FSM

I for one think it’s possible to reconcile theology and scientific theory.
Why, just the other night I experienced a big bang, and the wife kept hollering "oh god", the entire time.

Here's a couple of verses for more context:
John 10:14-16
"14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. "

My opinion:
Yes, I believe the Bible is God's word, inspired by God and recorded by men. Do I believe it? You betcha! Do I understand it all? Nope. I look forward to a tour and explanation in the future. Hey Lord, can you tell me again how you did that big bang thing?

Should you believe it? I think so, but I will not force it on you. You must make your own decision which is an important part of God's Word in the Bible that sometimes gets overlooked. I won't ever claim to be perfect, or better than you, just forgiven.

I am not personally sure that we are capable of understanding Him in His frame of reference.

A joke for an example:
-----------------
Me: Lord, you are on such a grand scale compared to us, I hear that a million years are but a second to you and a billion dollars would be but a penny.

Lord: Yes, that is true.

Me: Lord, can I have a billion dollars?

Lord: My child, I love you and would love to give you all things. I would love to give you a billion dollars. Just a second.....
-------------------

Yes, he did that. Since he couldn't lift it he dropped it. It was soooo big, it started sucking in everything around it. It soon became a black hole. Protons neutrons elecrons all compacted together so tight that it turned to pure energy, then it finally blew up, E became emcee squared, the big bang.

Actually Stuart, if you really want to talk about the fastest growing religion, wouldn't that be a very very small one? Example: Lets say Islam has 1000 theorhetical members total. They add two members every week, that is a .2% growth rate that week.

Now Rickology only has 2 members, but they also add 2 members per week which means they have a 100% growth rate that week.

Which is "faster growing"?? I would say the religion that is doubling every week is faster growing, no? Sort of like in the stock market...the smaller companies grow much faster than the established ones. So I would actually find it difficult to believe that Islam is the fastest growing religion since it is also the second largest. CNN probably left out all the smaller religions.

This really has nothing to do with the real world, but it is an interesting discussion just for argument's sake.

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/519219/

At the big bang, theory says, all the matter and energy in the universe was compressed into a space about a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a meter across. The laws of physics don't allow measurements smaller than that. As soon as it came into being, it exploded, at first releasing a field of undirected energy filled with massive particles dubbed "inflatons" that carry a sort of negative gravity, propelling everything outward. By the end of the first trillionth of a second, the inflatons had decayed into a seething plasma of elementary particles and energy in the form of photons.

Genesis 1:
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Man, that little tiny particle of all matter which suddenly exploded as soon as it came into being sure sounds a lot like Genesis 2-3.

"The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. "
-- Stephen Hawking

"1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God."
-- John 1, 1-2.

Coincidence??

The utter hilarity of listening to people trying to rationalize the validity of creationism is better than Comedy Central. . .

Not quite as good as when they had Chapelle's Show, but close.

One down, another to go.....
I didn't see anyone address this. I would say yes.
If indeed there is a God that creates things, then I would say God has a purpose behind his creations.

Yes? No?





Nor will it this time either. I'm just trying to explore my own theory a bit.

I happened to be watching an episode of Cosmos just last night - yes really. Sagan was talking about the possibility of one universe vs. oscillating universes, by which it all contracts back to a singularity and then there's another big bang and the process repeats itself over tens of billions of years. So far, we all know the universe is still expanding. The question is whether there is enough mass out there for gravity to reverse the expansion and contract it all back down. If this is how it works, then there is an endless cycle of big bangs and big crunches. I wonder if God meant for that to happen or just created physics (the only truly uniform set of laws that apply to everyone, everything, everywhere) and then stepped back.

I always wondered where the material that makes up the universe came from?

Reminds me of the Stephen Wright story where he was hitchiking and picked up by a guy who had spent his entire career studying who had built the Egyptian Pyramids. He said he was pretty sure it was a guy named Eddie.

Point being, does it (or is it) really matter?

naahh, but when the mind is idle, things like this pop into it. :D

Have you taken a good look at string theory lately?