Yes, I can see this is a deeply emotional experience for you.

I step into these waters with some trepidation, because I really think this whole issue was a stupid politcal game from the start and both sides are talking out of their arses about it.

My question is (for both parties), why is one leak ok and another not? Why is the Plame leak grounds for impeachment to the Democrats yet I haven't heard one Democrat calling for an investigation into the NSA wiretap leak? The same goes for Republicans. They piss and moan about the NSA leak yet say that the Plame issue is a non-starter. Come on guys. Either we think National Security is important or we don't. I don't care if Plame was covert or not, selling out a CIA agent for political purposes is wrong.

I'd like to see both sides come together and admit that all leaks are wrong and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. No matter what. Course right after that happens Rodeo and Joe will share a passionate kiss and go skipping into the sunset together....

One is a leak of classified information by the highest officials in the White House to advance a political agenda, which is a nice way of saying destroy your enemy. A leak designed to hide the truth and begin a smear campaign.

The other involves scores of lower level government employees, none in the very highest levels of power in the White House, who, out of a sense of constitutional duty, blew the whistle on illegal wiretapping.

Gee, I'm shocked that Rodeo continues to do the tapdance.

:rolleyes:

Excellent rebuttal.

Well, that's all there was to come back with.

Your reply was spot on.

Soon they will be throwing in the revelation of offshore (outsourced) torture centers and be equally blind to the difference between damage to national security and damage to the Consititution.

It has to be wilful ignorance. There's no other reasonable explanation.

At the Nuremberg trials these would have been the 'good Germans' who put government authority over moral law.

Wow, also shocked that Tech continues to tapdance. :rolleyes:

And we wonder why nothing ever gets done in Washington. People are too busy tapdancing and trying to sling mud to ever really fix the issue.

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a stupid neo-con anyways, right?

Your transformation to daddy jr. is 99% complete. Get the posts down to 7 words or less, put a smiley face on each of them, and we won't be able to tell the two of you apart.

Tapdance. That's brilliant.

Stay the course.

Again, I don't find presidential leaks of classified informaton for political purposes funny.

This administration disclosed the identity of a covert CIA agent and shut down a significant intelligence asset that could have played a significant role in our current conflict with Iran. One of the men that did this continues to sit at the right hand of the president.

I'm not laughing. No American should find this at all funny.

Translation:

One group had motives I agree with ......the other did not.

I think Rodeo's idea that things may be leaked if the leaker feels they were doing their Constitutional duty (that Rodeo agrees with of course). Indeed a truly unflappable stand!

Significant asset???? What is your intel on that? And again, what is your intel that this was knowingly done to cause harm to anything? the info was released to counter what was believed to be a politically motivated press release by Wilson. That's it.

I'm not here to answer your endless series of questions daddy. I just can't wait until you and those like you are pushed back to the margins where you belong. I can't wait to get America back.

I don't find the issue funny, I find your inability to do anything but spew partisan hatred and venom funny.

The problem is that this argument can be unending on both sides.

Your argument is that Plame was a vital covert CIA asset and was outed for political purposes while the NSA was just a well meaning whistleblower who was looking out for all of our constitutional rights.

The "NEOCON" argument would be that Plame was a desk level CIA employee who hadn't done any covert work in years. She drove her car from her house to the CIA building every day and had been outed as a covert agent years ago by the Soviets. On the other hand, the NSA program leak has damaged our ability to track our current enemy (al Qaeda) according to many different experts on the subject AND has never been ruled unconstitutional by any court.

So you and Mul or whoever you happen to be arguing with at the time can go round and round about this all you want until you choose to grow up, put aside your partisan political goals and call a spade a spade.

People like you are exactly why we have gridlock in Washington. Both sides primary concern is their public image and trying to pin as much BS on the other guy as they can, sorta like you here in PPOT.

Unfortunately the truth of the issue and how to best solve it gets lost in all the BS.

I'm not a Dem, nor am I a Repub. I'm also not on fastpat's planet, although I sometimes agree with him, the Dems, and the Repubs. It's complicated. ;) IMO, both leaks are wrong. There is a process for questioning illegal (but classified) activities. The NSA leaker didn't appear to follow this process, and deserves whatever punishment is meted out for the security breach.

I hope no one posts pics here of those two guys swapping spit. :eek:

lol, nice cover:D When finally challenged on your constant and endless exaggerations and extrapolations you are suddenly "not here to answer your endless series of questions" That's gold man, gold! Can I borrow that?

Plame outed herself. She exposed herself by actively working with her husband, overtly hostile to the Bush Administration, to deceive the nation. Valerie lied and still has answered no questions. Joe Wilson lied about what he found, how he found it, and has made a career out of it...The outrage is fake, it is phony, and this is evidenced by the fact that they were public long before being "outed," and they have become quite the couple about town kibbitzing with their leftist supporters and friends, shooting the cover of Vanity Fair, etc.

There is no comparison between the intentional leaking of military secrets and the outing of a CIA bureaucrat that was underhandedly seeking to harm and weaken the nation during wartime.

The only comparable element the two situations share is that they were both used to harm a sitting President, deceptively.

Won't work for you daddy. That is a Clown Posse exclusive;)

Wow, I couldn't have asked for better proof. Mul and Rodeo prove my point exactly.

Carry on fighting in the sandbox while Rome burns...

I appreciate the somewhat substantive response.

1. Every time someone criticizes the president, it becomes "a partisan attack." That is a false claim, and all it does is deflect from the issue at hand. I'm not a "partisan," I don't have anything to gain from either party gaining power. I simply don't like the president using classified material for political purposes. Please save your “partisan” attacks for someone else.

2. Plame was covert. There is no doubt on this point, and no controversy whatsoever. None. Whether she was "vital" does not and cannot excuse outing her. She was a covert agent; her president should not have blown her cover, period.

3. NSA was not one source, but multiple sources. Many, many sources. It is confirmed now that the lawyers that were charged with approving the program hired personal lawyers of their own, because they knew warrantless wiretapping was illegal. Many refused to go along.

I'm glad that the multiple sources came forward and disclosed this illegal activity. In past conversations, you have basically agreed, and endorsed hearings that would never happen had the program remained secret.

The president is not entitled to bury illegal activity by classifying it.

Neither you nor anyone else has offered a single reason why warrantless wiretapping should be classified. How does someone knowing that the NSA will wiretap his or her phone without a warrant damage national security?

It does not. They know NSA will tap their phone, whether it is done with or without a warrant is irrelevant.

Give me a single valid why the warrantless portion of the NSA program should be classified and I would feel differently. Right now, the only reason I can think of is so the president could hide illegal activity.

See, that's what I can't get about this whole thing.

Are there people in the CIA who "knowingly collaborated" with the Wilson's scheme? Weren't her fellow CIA bureaucrats aware of her politics after working with her in an office for 15-20 years?
Wouldn't they just ignore her recommendation to protect the VP and his staff? I thought the CIA supported the administration and provided facts/intel for their policies.

I love the concept of moral equivalence. It is always entertaining when a well meaning mediator enters a fray and tries to make equal the scales. Moral equivalence and well-meaning mediation can be wrong and in this case they are misguided...In your attempt at finding the middle ground you have stepped into fantasy land.

Objectivity is not, despite the misperception, moderate or morally equivalent. Objectivity leads one to hard biases and bigoted prejudices.

There are career bureaucrats. There are many that got their jobs as a political favor, some disgruntled, some activists that have an agenda, and some who are stupid enough to expose themselves and their status based on their actions. Valerie Plame knew what she was doing, she slept in the same bed with Joe Wilson. It was no secret. I doubt the risks were not thought about. In fact, I believe she and Wilson made their decisions realizing the situation win-win for them. They put Cheney/Bush in a pickle. You don't expose her, you lose. You do expose her, you lose...Despite this, she was not what she was sold to be. She was not covert...This renders the issue a fabricated scandal, orchestrated to protect an intentional sabotage of a sitting President.

Bottom line...Joe Wilson lied and Valerie Plame helped him.

Wilson has since become a hero to the Democrats and the ultra-left of the political spectrum. He has enjoyed fame that he obviously relishes, he has a book deal, he is fawned over by the press, and he has become a near hero at beltway parties.

Interesting how the media stays away from Valerie...What does she and the media have to hide?...She could put it all to rest.

It seems the media are as interested in Mrs. Plame-Wilson as they are Sandy Berger defrauding the 9-11 investigation.

the silence is deafening

None? Care to make one of our famous Pelican wagers on this? I will of course require good odds seeing that there is " no controversy whatsoever. None".

take your fingers out of your ears, mul.


BTW, the world is round. :cool:

Save your money so you can contribute to the Libby Legal Defense Fund.

Oh come now, easy money for you! How about this....if it comes out that she was not covert at the time of Novaks column then you will just go away?

How about your take your head out of your a$$ and read the indictment?

Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At
all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.

EDIT: How about your take your head out of your a$$ and read ANYTHING, anything at all besides your own drivel?

amazing how Jim's thoughtful post gets ignored (well, except by me :p )

I don't know about that logic. It seems like there would be more higher up supervision in the CIA for approving outside guys to make intel trips. Especially if someone (a wife to boot !) - wanted to send a known Democratic radical like Wilson who was out to get the President. Somebody must have really screwed up. Wasn't Tenet let go about that time? Do you think that's the real reason? He didn't do a good enough job protecting the President?

Hmmmm, that's what I wondered in an earlier post. How come Wilson's lies (IF they are lies - inquiring minds want to know) put Cheney/Bush in a pickle? Why would they react so strongly to an editorial in the NY Times, a paper few regular Americans read, written by a guy no one ever heard of, anyway? (Altho, I guess he worked for the original Prez Bush, right?)

I often agree with Jim, and I don't think "whistleblowers" are entitled to go running to the press everytime they feel a classified program is wrong.

But warrantless wiretaps is just so far out there, so contrary not only to the constitution but to existing criminal law, that I think Jim Risen's MULTIPLE sources were true American heros.

Is that a yes?

Oh, and you can say ass in here. Watch, hey Rodeo, you resemble a horse's ass (strictly for demonstrative purposes of course). See:D

ass

ass

ass

wow, that was fun.

can we say ****?

Hmmm, guess not. You two boys get back to your fight.

Actually I saw Jim's post and was going to comment on how Rodeo might learn a thing or two about how to have meaningful discussion from Jim...

But then I thought it would just be seen as another attack on Rodeo so I deleted it.

And the rhetorical fray of no substance continues...

That's the first piece of useful information you have ever posted here.

Well thanks good buddy........I suppose you don't look exactly like a horse's ass after all.

Does anybody know why/how the Wilson's put Cheney/Bush in a pickle?

Valerie thought or assumed she would be protected by her status at the CIA. She knew, given she was literally in bed with Wilson, what he planned on doing. She allowed Wilson to lie about what he found and who sent him to Niger. She, therefore, lied by association. Plame on one side, Cheney/Bush in the middle, Wilson on the other side.