Why Are Some Good Students So......Stupid?
 

The semester has ended with little fanfare. The majority of my students did respectable – averaging around 83%. A few standouts mostly from the guys that are over 30 and looking to snag their degree part time. Some real talented 2nd and 3rd year students really turned it on. A few bombed for no good reason.

The students have known all semester that the final would be given on-line and they also knew they had a 48hour window. Once they began the exam they had 2 hours to take it.

Half of the graded work was done on-line and submitted as such. The students knew the drill and all were able to do the on-line work. They were told repeatedly that if they experience any issues that they should call me (my cell phone # was given and I provided a 24/7 pick-up or callback – really!). If for any reason I do not call back within a few minutes to call the TA immediately. They also have the Help Desk hotline which does answer 24/7 (I know, I try them periodically). The thing is they can get to somebody for help. Technical difficulties are a weak but semi-acceptable excuse.

One of the best and brightest students – a frosh from NJ who is studying computer science and has tested out of many classes already - this kid has the chops to be a heck of a gamer. He calls me up at 1:00PM yesterday and tells me that he can’t get into the site to take the final. “Dude, the deadline has pasted. It ended midnight. You had all weekend – what happened?” “I guess I must have spaced out and got my dates confused”. I told them all not 48 hours prior!!! I even said to start it early incase of any web issues. WTF???

Two kids out of 20 from his class and 3 out of 20 from the other class missed the final deadline. The hard part was that most of the kids that missed the deadlines were actually doing great. The final is 15% of the grade. A ‘0’ will bring down their grades for sure. Pretty sad.

I talked to the chair today on his behalf to see if I could lobby an exception. I was shut down like a Mormon child asking for an extra slice of ham. All the students could not offer up even a decent excuse. If they told me it was a web issue it would have been one thing. But it wasn’t – they just spaced. Oh well. Do that in the corporate world and find out what happens…

One too many hits from the bong...

They've put off partying all semester and decided "what the hell"...

These are most likely closer to the real reasons.

Teaching college kids that they can slack off and weasle out of anything--even hard and fast deadlines--does them no good. Too bad their parents didn't teach them this lesson first.

. . .as if they know that the final is too important for you to disregard, for their final grade. btst (been there, seen that)

It's a great way to buy time, so they can focus on their other finals. They have you pegged as giving a shiet. . . so it works.

Re: Why Are Some Good Students So......Stupid?
 

That is going to vary widely.

Most of what we do at work, can be put off without penalty - so long as you get it done. Everynow and then, you have "today" things, and those have a deadline that there is no question of meeting.

Well - I guess I am guilty as charged. I do find myself caring more than I want to.

I have this student - ROTC and works as well. A decent student - not the worst and not the best. Solid 2.0 from what I can gather. Did marginal on the final presentation. The paper was weak and presentation was 2nd worst in the class. I gave a 60% on it - didn't deserve and any more. It was worth 40% of the final grade. This student has a great work ethic yet has little to no chops. I know that this grade will hurt but I can't bump it - it wouldn't be fair or right.

I think about that.

The State of Mexifornia would say... Go ahead and pass them anyway. No need for standards, they were probably poor or disadvantaged anyway. The illegals from TJ with no education are better at math and street smarts than most of the HS grads around here.

Let them get used to slacking off, it's good training for a brave new world.

In my experience, I've been totally floored by the audacity of some student, with repect to getting a grade, or a third chance.

I came to the realization that my job was to tell the students where & when they screwed up. That part about "subject matter" -- well. . . rumor has it, that they learn from mistakes too.

They knew the rules and a few did not give a damm. I did the same thing you did a while back and really enjoyed it but taking care of the exams and finals really was a pain at times. Enjoyed teaching but its not an easy job at times.

Agree with the rest. If they get used to being cut some slack then they will expect it in real life, which will not happen. Give them the grade they deserve and next semester hopefully they will do it right for a change.

Why? Because they went to government schools for 12 years already.

I agree with Wayne.

Yep, what Wayne said... I still would not cut them any slack whatsoever if you want to be fair to the rest of the class. I remember blowing off a couple of final exams (I generally made all 'A's), because 'I wanted to' and took a 'C' instead without complaint. FWIW, a 'C' is a killer to an almost perfect gpa, but 'thems the breaks'...

It happened with smart students 20 years ago when I was in college and it'll keep happening, unfortunately. As for college vs the real world. I found college more stressful. My last year of engineering school, I was getting regular headaches. I didn't get them before or after. When your future relies on a report being turned in on time or passing a test, it's pretty stressful. Now if I miss a deadline (which rarely happens) I get a slap on the wrist.

Funny story: One of college roommates missed a final during his fraternity hell week. His TA called a couple weeks later to apologize for losing his final and asked my roommate if he remembered what grade he got. My roommate said he got a B and TA said oh yeh that sounds right. Lucky bastard. BTW, that roommate runs a software company and is a millionaire.

Yeah, but just think where he'd be today if he had taken that final exam :)

I don't think I ever took a final exam in my life that was only worth 15%. They were pretty lucky.

I can't imagine missing the final and still passing the class.

Things are pretty rigid in my world. You show up when you're supposed to and you better be ready to work. I don't want to sound too harsh, but the guy who "forgets" his final exam is unlikely to be someone I want to rely on in business.

IIRC, there was some type of 'policy' that stated that the final exam couldn't drop your grade by more than two letters ... so of course I took advantage of the policy on a couple of occasions :).... we had it easy back then...

ps: He didn't 'forget' imo....he 'blew it off'...ah, the indiscretions of youth...

Book sense \=/ Common sense

Are these the same students the messed up the research paper earlier in the semester. This is not the corporate world, its a school. Why does a school or a University have to be easy going or offer 2nd chances and/or exceptions for people who are unreliable and don't follow rules or meet expectations consistently?

In law school all you have is final exams at the end of the semester. No intermediate exams at all. Flunk the exam, flunk the course.

Again, some folks are just not going to let their ignorance get in the way of their hatred.

I agree with Wayne. Heck one course's rules were as follows (and I'm not kidding......this is the beloved and legendary capstone Accounting class given to graduating Accounting seniors at Gonzaga University....whose students have something like an unbelievable 80% pass rate on the CPA exam):

*Course meets two hours in the morning, and two hours in the afternoon, on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

*Homework will be assigned at each class period, due at the next class period. Homework will comprise 50% of the grade. Homework will be collected once. No prior warning as to when it will be collected.

*The other 50% of the grade will be the final exam.

*When class starts, the door is closed. The door remains closed until class is adjourned.

*Students may not take notes during class (I'm not kidding).

*Students may not ask questions during class, except on the last day of class.

Again, this teacher, Gonzaga's dungareed, cigar-smoking legendary enigma, is the equivalent of John Houseman in The Paper Chase. A brutally tough but much beloved teacher and course.

College can be tougher than real life. Which is good, since real life delivers much more painful lessons. Here, the worst case scenario is that the student has to retake the class.

Finals were 70% in some of my classes.

A California judge ruled recently that students didn't have to take exit exams out of high school. He said the tests were biased against poor and non-english speaking students. So the judge is saying poor=stupid? And as far as language.... well, I'm still wondering why I have to "press one for english or press two for spanish" when I call almost any company in the United States.

Re: Re: Why Are Some Good Students So......Stupid?
 

In certain positions and in certain companies I would agree. In the field we dance in and the competition we face, we have to be spot-on and deliver always or we look like shmucks. There is little room for missed commitments.

When it comes to what we do, our reputation is tested constantly. At some point we may have the brand recognition that would generate forgiveness but that is a ways off. I just hope we always have this stress. It has made us the best.

Actually the judge on this case is going to make his ruling this Friday. What he's going to be ruling on is not whether the test should be thrown out for good, but whether this years seniors who couldn't pass the test should be given diplomas since its the first mandatory year requiring students to pass the test in order to get their diploma, not future years.

But I agree with you, 100% especially since my son, in his words "easily" passed it in the 10th grade and doesn't have to take it again.

I equate "blowing off your finals" with complacency and mediocrity, and neither is acceptable in real life, personal or professional.

College (although it was pretty hard to graduate with honors), was about as far removed from 'real life' that I have ever experienced. In my case, I don't regret it one bit (re: 'blowing off a final') for what I then thought (at the age of 20) was a 'once in a lifetime experience'... Do I regret missing a bs philosophy final, for a trip that I still vividly remember 25 years later...not hardly. I think some of you have forgotten what it's like to be young and immature (like I certainly was at that age). If you never blew off a class for a chick, then all I can say is 'damn, you missed out' :). I've since been pretty successful, but I've never forgotten to have fun along the way....to each their own....

ps: I still maintain that the student who missed the final should not be cut any slack however...

Blowing off a class isn't quite the same as blowing off a final.

To a real hard a$$ it would be...it's just a matter of degree and perspective, so where do you draw the line? And if you think that 'complacency and mediocrity' have no place in the 'real world', then I take it you've never spent a significant amount of time in 'corporate america' :). I'm no slacker, but did I do some stupid stuff in my youth? I'll have to plead the fifth on that one....

Ditto. I work in Retail Banking, in a seriously deadline-dependent area. When my team misses a deadline, it creates a serious ****storm since everyone and his mother will be calling to ask what happened to their account balance. Yet my employees routinely act shocked when they're reprimanded for impacting that deadline, in spite of them knowing that such errors could cost the bank more than we pay them in a year. People are entering the business world with the idea that they'll never be held responsible to doing their jobs or for screwing up.

I spent a significant portion of my career working for two of the largest banking corporations in the US, always with exemplary reviews, promotions, and compensation (for banks). I understand where you're coming from about 'meeting deadlines' (i.e. missing a deadline when transferring say $50-$100 BILLION around can lose serious $ (in interest alone) in just a matter of minutes...WAY more than most of us make in a year). It still boggles my mind at the amount of 'complacency and mediocrity' that existed at both corporations. I never said it was OK (I strive to be a perfectionist when I do something)...just that it exists. FWIW, it typically wasn't the people in the trenches that were mediocre, it was the decision makers who were to busy attempting to climb the corporate ladder (internal politics, covering their butts, attending bs meetings, etc.) that were typically lacking. It was also my experience that the larger a corporation grew, the worse it became. I think our government bureaucracy has become the epitome of this phenominum. Just my .02 based upon my personal experiences of 'how it was'.... I don't miss it one bit :)!

I think i'm like the student you mentioned, maybe not as smart, but i do really well in all my classes then do something stupid on the final. From experience i think it comes from busting my a$$ during the semester then just burning out towards the end. To give you an example, one of our harder coarses in this dept is dynamics, yet i've had nothing but A's all semester. The professor was impressed enough to suggest that i go to graduate school and get into solid mechanics. Then on the final, three decent sized problems, and on one problem for some stupid reason, the radius of gyration is given, and instead of using the mass times k sub g squared, i stuck a 1/2 in front of it for no good reason. For some reason it made sense at the time, and as i'm leaving the exam it hit me and i feel like a moron. This should have been trivial and yet i screwed it up.
And i've done things similar in other classes throughout my college career so i can kind of sympathize with the student in question.

Coming in late.

Lube, giving that student the lousy final grade he deserves will teach him more than if he'd taken the test and earned an A in your class.

I agree 100% with that!

And he is a kid that is able to test out of several classes. He did great in my class (up until the final) which he couldn't test out of. I gotta (maybe wanna) believe that he will learn a life lesson and make him better.

Or as my ol'Man would say "he just paid tuition to the school of hard knocks..."

Re: Why Are Some Good Students So......Stupid?
 

Sounds like you're a good teacher (because you care). What subject do you teach?

I teach a couple classes that are required for engineering and science majors (as well as math majors) - Professional Presentations and Technical Writing. I wish I took the course in college. Heck, I wish I took it when I first started working. It would have saved me years of trial and error.

I didn’t design the course. There are certain things I would do differently. For the most part it is a good class. Most all of the students say it is the toughest class they take (that includes P-chem, daffy Q’s and thermal as well as mechanics) because it is really different than anything they are comfortable with.

It would actually be easier for non-science students to do well in this course. It seems that most of the good science and engineering students have zero social skills and public presentation chops. The ones that get past their fears of public speaking and apply just a few of the speaking techniques as well as the presentation organization concepts actually do really well. Imagine an engineer or scientist that could write coherently and speak well in a professional, relaxed manner. Rare as naturally violet eyes!

Fortunately, if someone has serious stage fright it will have very little impact on the final grade. Much more goes into it than just being able to get up in front of a crowd and pitching...

Oh man, your teaching the classes i hate. I think i see why your student "forgot" the final. :rolleyes:

My wife, who did not attend college, works at a large state univerity here in Tampa. She is an hourly paid staff member and she deals with Master and PHD degree seeking students daily. The stories she tells me of lame-brain students are never ending. They miss tests, they miss class, they lose books, and some can not carry on a conversation to even explain what the problem may be. And it doesn't help that a pretty good percentage of the professors are in the same boat. :rolleyes:

I think all of you are being too hard on those students...I am at work now and completely spacing out. I like to hang on a site with the name Pelican in it.

:)

Remember, dont pass the Bong till after work is over!

One thing is certain - these studenst do have a bunch of stuff going on. Most are taking at least 5 classes, 75% are in internships, and 25% are working on senior projects all the while trying to figuer a plan to get their fingers stinky which is a mighty tall order for an engineering geek!