Warrantless spying on Americans - another shoe drops!

[Rodeo]

I read the article, and you are correct that I am no fan of the Weekly Standard. It represents the worst of the conservative movement: In favor of foreign adventures that promote democracy in foreign lands, while turning a blind eye to the encroachments on liberty and freedom at home. It makes a mockery of the traditional conservative movement in America, which was concerned only with vital American interests abroad, and with keeping the government the hell out of our lives at home.

Give me Barry Goldwater over Bill Kristol any day of the week.

Yes, the article is correct that monitoring Americans' phone calls will make us safer. Monitoring Americans' emails will make us safer. A national ID card will make us safer, as will giving the police the right to stop and frisk citizens randomly.

Every incremental power we give to the government over Americans' lives, communications, and movements will make us safer.

Chips implanted under our skin will make us safer, with massive computers keeping electronic track of where we are at any given moment, and giving warnings if we suddenly appear on the Brooklyn Bridge at 4:00 am when that is out of character.

But don't worry, no human eyes will actually look at the data. Unless they have reason to.

People are going to have to decide how much more freedom and privacy they will give up for safety. I say the balance has already been struck, in the Constitution of the United States of America.

[DaveE]

I guess we'll have to do away with our cell phones and go back to leaking information in parking garages, like the good old days.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by VenezianBlau 87
So, where are the federal court injuntions or rulings? If these activities are illegal, why aren't we reading about successful challenges or cases accepted by the Supreme Court?

If you're expecting the corrupt federal courts to salvage freedom for America, you are naive.

You must get a thorough understanding of what is in the Constitution, how it was meant to function, and then demand it be applied that way.

The essentials are; 1. The Constitution created the US government, it did not create America nor did it create the states, both existed prior to the Constitution's existence, and 2. The Constitution is an envelope within which the US govbernment must remain at all times and where ever it is, including the US military.

Allowing the US government to violate the Constitution is not just a bad idea, it negates the document itself, and that leads inevitably to disrespect for real laws, which leads to chaos.

A lawless government cannot be tolerated, even for a minute.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Rodeo
I read the article, and you are correct that I am no fan of the Weekly Standard. It represents the worst of the conservative movement: In favor of foreign adventures that promote democracy in foreign lands, while turning a blind eye to the encroachments on liberty and freedom at home. It makes a mockery of the traditional conservative movement in America, which was concerned only with vital American interests abroad, and with keeping the government the hell out of our lives at home.

Give me Barry Goldwater over Bill Kristol any day of the week.

Yes, the article is correct that monitoring Americans' phone calls will make us safer. Monitoring Americans' emails will make us safer. A national ID card will make us safer, as will giving the police the right to stop and frisk citizens randomly.

Every incremental power we give to the government over Americans' lives, communications, and movements will make us safer.

Chips implanted under our skin will make us safer, with massive computers keeping electronic track of where we are at any given moment, and giving warnings if we suddenly appear on the Brooklyn Bridge at 4:00 am when that is out of character.

But don't worry, no human eyes will actually look at the data. Unless they have reason to.

People are going to have to decide how much more freedom and privacy they will give up for safety. I say the balance has already been struck, in the Constitution of the United States of America.

First a comment on the Weekly Standard. This is the publication of the neo-conservatives; published by Irving Kristol and edited by his son, William who appears regularly on FoxNews. They are both Trotskyite socialists who were booted out of the liberal movement, first Irving, and then later his son. They've always wanted world government, and don't really care how they get it. In fact, during the campaign in 2004, William stated that if the Bush's went "wobbly" on the Iraq Invasion, he'd take the neo-cons over to Kerry's camp and support him. Hollow threat, maybe, but it's a strong indication that these guys are dedicated to their socialist principles over any thing else. Their major web site is Project for the New American Century wherein they've documented fully their goal of a global empire run by the US government. Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, and other familiar names inside or closely associated with the Bush'ist administration are published on that site. They don't hide their aims, it's right there in black and white.

On to worse. There's a new federal program, the National Animal Identification System being sold as a way to protect against animal born diseases such as "bird flu" and "mad cow disease". Naturally, large poultry and cattle producers are all for it, and small farmers will simply be put out of business by it. Why do I mention it? Because it will be a precedent setting program in that it will test whether or not the federal government can require the identification of all private property owned by individuals, and will also test whether or not the federal government can require the identification of all humans by implication. Farfetched you say, well no it's not, 72 years ago the National Firearms Act was passed requiring registration of all machine guns. Over the years that Act was used as precedent for registrations of all types and prohibition of new machine guns, registered or not; still without a single scintilla of support in the Constitution of any kind.

We live in dangerous times, and it's not going to get better soon, no matter who's in office.

[VenezianBlau 87]

Sure the executive and legislative branches push the envelope and the judicial branch rules based on constitutionality. Nothing new here. I'd be more concerned about corporations that gather, store, and sell information about us to virtually anyone, including the U.S. Govt. Props to ChoicePoint.

In a worst case scenario, a reduction of freedoms will hurt others more than it will hurt me. To most folks, freedom means "freedom to make and spend money" not real freedom as defined in the bill of rights. Frankly, I "use" my freedoms less than the wealthy and/or outrageous people we all hear and see. At the same time, I know how to get along under adverse conditions, unlike those folks. Frankly, I'd be no better or worse off in a "heightened security" nation. Due to political calculus, our elected officials won't protect the borders. I'd be more concerned about that than some phone number algorithim run by the NSA.

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by Rodeo
I read the article, and you are correct that I am no fan of the Weekly Standard. It represents the worst of the conservative movement: In favor of foreign adventures that promote democracy in foreign lands, while turning a blind eye to the encroachments on liberty and freedom at home. It makes a mockery of the traditional conservative movement in America, which was concerned only with vital American interests abroad, and with keeping the government the hell out of our lives at home.

Give me Barry Goldwater over Bill Kristol any day of the week.

Yes, the article is correct that monitoring Americans' phone calls will make us safer. Monitoring Americans' emails will make us safer. A national ID card will make us safer, as will giving the police the right to stop and frisk citizens randomly.

Every incremental power we give to the government over Americans' lives, communications, and movements will make us safer.

Chips implanted under our skin will make us safer, with massive computers keeping electronic track of where we are at any given moment, and giving warnings if we suddenly appear on the Brooklyn Bridge at 4:00 am when that is out of character.

But don't worry, no human eyes will actually look at the data. Unless they have reason to.

People are going to have to decide how much more freedom and privacy they will give up for safety. I say the balance has already been struck, in the Constitution of the United States of America.

+1

It sounds like Rodeo is becoming a libertarian.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
+1

It sounds like Rodeo is becoming a libertarian.

This country is a one-party country. Half of it is called Republican and half is called Democrat. It doesn't make any difference. All the really good ideas belong to the Libertarians. - Hugh Downs (1997)

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat
We live in dangerous times, and it's not going to get better soon, no matter who's in office. [/B]

Every generation lives in "dangerous times", war, famine, disease, natural disasters, etc.

Either buy a bomb shelter in your yard and prepare for the worst.
-or-
live life the best you can and not in fear.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Eric 951
Every generation lives in "dangerous times", war, famine, disease, natural disasters, etc.

Either buy a bomb shelter in your yard and prepare for the worst.
-or-
live life the best you can and not in fear.

Since we can control the portion of the above perpetrated by governments; we should do that.

Also, you should abandon the idea that I, personally, live in fear, this is neither about me personally, nor is it about you, personally. It's about whether we're going to be a free nation with a law abiding government, or live with a government that randomly enforces laws that are illegitimate and acts illegally in other ways.

Demanding a lawful government is always the right thing to do.

[dstar]

When the **** really hits the fan in a couple years, it's guys like fastpat here that will be rallying the citizens to action, whilst your ilk will still be looking to your *government*, asking them to *govern*, something that has been out of hand for DECADES.

Our government.

When your kids are dying in front of your eyes, while the RICH and their children are well taken care of, you will have only YOURSELVES to blame, for not having the forsight to NOT trust the COPORATE OWNED *Government State*.

We ARE in America, right? Where a person has the RIGHT to say what he believes in?

And by CONSTITUTIONAL decree, the OBLIGATION to stand up as a MAN and declare the illegitimacy of a corporate owned bureau that panders to the RICH, and ****s on the poor?

Our OIL Baron, I mean President, wipes his ass with OUR Constitution, ursups the American CITIZEN'S RIGHTS, declares that he doesn't listen to polls, because he doesn't CARE WHAT WE THINK or WANT, yet those with all their $$$ tied up in the *Rat Race* of swindling America still support him, out of their fear of *losing it all*.

Folks, you have ALREADY lost it ALL, when you lost your FREEDOM, that I and many others, STUPIDLY FOUGHT to
DEFEND.

The REAL criminals are still in WASHINTON, DC.....
but not for forever.

As history shows, the American citizens will indeed stand up, as all citizens of all govts have in the past(and are now doing) to their respective corrupted Govts.

Your future is WAR folks, with the guys you are now *trusting* to lead you.

Think wisely about you and your families future. IF you put trust in this *Govt*, all is already lost to you.

DSTAR

[lendaddy]

Pat's son?

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Pat's son?

possibly, since he also enjoys the paste feature of the computer.

he/she/it posted the exact same message in another thread.

My response to the post now, as in the other


I BELIEVE you are a tool.

[Jim Richards]

My guess it's a new PP ID for one of Mul's other personalities.

[Superman]

A Democratic-controlled House of Representatives with subpoena power would certainly help illuminate the "classified" answers to our most pressing questions. All these issues hinge on what in the heck is going on. The "administration" is holding all the cards it can hide. We are only seeing those cards that the "administration" could not keep from the American People. The largest part of this iceberg is still under the surface, and my guess is that it's pretty big and ugly. And eventually the truth is going to surface. Soon, I hope. This may get REAL interesting.

[dstar]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Pat's son?

Not even close kin!
BUWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Just a like-minded, patriotic individual, that is tired of the *rats* winning.

Where is honesty? Americans routinely laugh when they see the word honesty and politicians in the same sentence.

That should NOT be the case.

We should NOT stand idly by, and let the physical slavery of old, be be replaced by economic slavery, now.

But that is what happened. Because you were chasing *the dream*, and your eyes were closed to the truth by those that seeked to enslave you. and you were easily snared with a Budweiser, and a TV remote.

But now you have been warned. What you do now is up to you.

Hmmmm, same ultimatum Noah gave the world, in the days of old....

What will YOU do? What will you tell your kids, when they are eating out of the garbage dump, or lie dying in the street from the lawlessness that is to come?

Will you tell them the TRUTH?

That you sat on your ass, popped the top on another *cool one*, and watched the Lakers game?

No, you will continue the injustice by lying to your own children, instead of accepting the blame that you will know in your heart you deserve.

DSTAR

[dstar]

Originally posted by Eric 951
[B]possibly, since he also enjoys the paste feature of the computer.

he/she/it posted the exact same message in another thread.

IF you'll go look at that post, I moved it here.

Originally posted by Eric 951

My response to the post now, as in the other


I BELIEVE you are a tool.

OK, so what?
I believe you've been brainwashed most of your life.

Wanna start up ANOTHER round of third grade name calling?

That usually shows who won......

DSTAR

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by dstar
[
What will YOU do? What will you tell your kids, when they are eating out of the garbage dump, or lie dying in the street from the lawlessness that is to come?

[/B]

Sweet. I will finally be able to put my V8 Interceptor to use and subsequently rule the wasteland.

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by dstar
IF you'll go look at that post, I moved it here.



OK, so what?
I believe you've been brainwashed most of your life.

Wanna start up ANOTHER round of third grade name calling?

That usually shows who won......

DSTAR

Hey--nobody outranks GENERAL Penis A. McPenis in third grade name-calling.

[dstar]

Originally posted by Eric 951
Hey--nobody outranks GENERAL Penis A. McPenis in third grade name-calling.

BUWAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

BUTT, you forget that you are talking to:

General Penis A. McStinkybutt

BUWHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

DSTAR

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by dstar
BUWAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

BUTT, you forget that you are talking to:

General Penis A. McStinkybutt

BUWHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

DSTAR

Hmmm, per British military code, I received my commision earlier, thus I am in command here.

HA!