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Calif. Preschool Proposal

I hate to cut-n-paste. But why don't we just hand our new-borns over to the state? Were does parents, grand-parents, siblings and family fit into this. Why put these kids on the treadmill so early?

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - A proposed universal preschool program on California's June ballot would dramatically increase student achievement and could eventually become a national model if it is adopted, early education researchers say.

In a report released Thursday, the National Institute for Early Education Research said it conservatively estimates the state would get back $2.78 for every $1 it invests in the Proposition 82 preschool program. That estimate is similar to a finding in a study done by the RAND Corp.

The savings would come through decreased school failure rates and subsequent problems such as delinquency, crime and lower productivity, researchers said.

"It is well planned and will bring higher standards, accountability, and adequate resources to early childhood education," the institute's report said. "It has the potential to create the nation's premier preschool education system."

The nonpartisan think-tank, based at Rutgers University in New Jersey, is generally supportive of expanding preschool programs and annually evaluates state and local programs nationwide. It has previously given California poor ratings for its existing preschool programs.

Proposition 82 — proposed by Hollywood producer Rob Reiner — would impose a 1.7 percent tax on individual incomes over $400,000 a year and couples' incomes over $800,000 a year to fund a $2.4 billion annual preschool program open to all 4-year-olds.

The measure would require preschool teachers to obtain teaching credentials and be paid at rates comparable to public school teachers. The state superintendent of public instruction would oversee the curriculum.

Critics say the program would set up another costly state mandate that would benefit only a few students. Around two-thirds of 4-year-olds currently attend some kind of preschool program, but Proposition 82 supporters and opponents disagree about how good those programs are.

In Thursday's report, researchers noted serious flaws in California's education system, including fourth-grade reading scores that are lower than those in 43 other states. They said good quality preschool could help reduce strain on the K-12 system.

Steve Barnett, director of the National Institute for Early Education Research, said the proposition contains all the hallmarks the group considers as essential to good-quality preschool, including teacher accreditation, comprehensive early education standards, higher teacher pay and state monitoring.

"While we might nit pick little bits here and there, compared to what most other states have on the books, the provisions of this are so much more detailed and well-planned, using reasonable timelines," Barnett said.

The group last year gave California a score of four out of 10 for its existing programs. Barnett said many of the preschool programs now available are educationally ineffective. The survey was primarily funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts.

The No on Proposition 82 campaign referred questions to Lisa Snell, director of education at the Los Angeles-based Reason Foundation. She has been critical of the June ballot initiative but is not part of the campaign.

Snell said the best use of limited preschool money would be in small-scale, intensive intervention programs for low-income and minority children. She said similar programs, such as those in Oklahoma and Georgia, have not produced significant academic gains.

"I think that they are counting on it being a silver bullet for fixing reading achievement in California," she said. "In the other two states that have universal programs it really hasn't panned out for them yet in reading achievement."

Old 05-18-2006, 11:04 AM
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Other than the fact that it unfairly taxes the wealthy, whats the problem?
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Old 05-18-2006, 11:16 AM
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The day care lobby will never stand for it.
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Old 05-18-2006, 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by HardDrive
Other than the fact that it unfairly taxes the wealthy, whats the problem?
Because we are running a society here, not a corporation. Look at the stated goals:

"It is well planned and will bring higher standards, accountability, and adequate resources to early childhood education," the institute's report said. "It has the potential to create the nation's premier preschool education system."

Sounds like one of my bullsh&% quarterly division level teleconferences...

Children of that age don't need "education". They need families and play and socialization in the home and community.

Would you want your child to be the target of this:

"Snell said the best use of limited preschool money would be in small-scale, intensive intervention programs for low-income and minority children."

Ugg - these poor kids....
Old 05-18-2006, 11:35 AM
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I agree and suggest taking it one step further. . .

This may sound draconian, but I honestly think people ought to apply for an obtain a license in order to procreate. This would be totally seperate from a marriage license (since so many kids are born to unmarried parents now anyway).

The sketchy part is how to penalize people for having children without first obtaining the required license. Perhaps having them lose their child tax credit would be good enough. Perhaps making them ineligible to attend public schools? That one would probably just penalize the child so it's problematic. Seriously though - let's have mandatory actual classroom training and tests required in order to obtain a license to breed, along with perhaps a credit and background check. We need more "parents" and less "breeders".
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Old 05-18-2006, 11:56 AM
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This is just like those studies that claim playing the violin makes you good at math so we should all throw money at some music program if we want our kids to be able to do calculus.

Sure, you can easily show a statistically significant relationship between math geeks and band geeks. But proving one CAUSES the other is much more difficult.

I agree with Wayne in that putting the kids of lousy parents into school a year earlier doesn’t solve their problems, and won't "reduce their failure" either.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
I agree and suggest taking it one step further. . .

This may sound draconian, but I honestly think people ought to apply for an obtain a license in order to procreate. This would be totally seperate from a marriage license (since so many kids are born to unmarried parents now anyway).

The sketchy part is how to penalize people for having children without first obtaining the required license. Perhaps having them lose their child tax credit would be good enough. Perhaps making them ineligible to attend public schools? That one would probably just penalize the child so it's problematic. Seriously though - let's have mandatory actual classroom training and tests required in order to obtain a license to breed, along with perhaps a credit and background check. We need more "parents" and less "breeders".
I have been saying this for years, and also that the way our entitlement system is set up, it gives a cash incentive for the wrong people to have the most kids(Unintelligent, uneducated, unable to support a large family, etc) Large reason why we are getting our asses handed to us in science and math lately.

I hope and pray that the voters of Mexifornia are not stupid enough to fall for this. Actually I know they are, I just hope they don't vote this in. If it passes, how many folks that are targeted will stay here long enough to pay the taxes? People with that sort of income, can afford to move their primary residence, so it will never work. They may set it up, and the state pay for it, but that is as far as it will go.

Fucking Meathead
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Old 05-18-2006, 05:11 PM
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Sure, just keep taxing the "wealthy" they'll put up with it indefinitely. The two most transporatable things in the world are money, and people who are good at making money.

Right now I'm paying "Full Boat" for my daughter to go to UC Santa Barbara, because I make too much money, but I also have the pleasure of paying taxes for illegals and others to also go to college as well.
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Old 05-18-2006, 05:22 PM
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So let's see: the max income tax rate for CA will be 11%, + county/city, and the results of the AMT

Prob doesn't matter much if you earn several million a year, but if you're on the cusp ($400K) it's gonna suck.

Another reason not to return.

Side note: To all those in favor of dropping the deductions for children from the tax code, increasing taxes for those who have kids, and/or favoring licensing for procreation, I'm with you.
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by artplumber
So let's see: the max income tax rate for CA will be 11%, + county/city, and the results of the AMT

Prob doesn't matter much if you earn several million a year, but if you're on the cusp ($400K) it's gonna suck.

Another reason not to return.

Side note: To all those in favor of dropping the deductions for children from the tax code, increasing taxes for those who have kids, and/or favoring licensing for procreation, I'm with you.
"Side note: To all those in favor of dropping the deductions for children from the tax code, increasing taxes for those who have kids, and/or favoring licensing for procreation, I'm with you."
~~~

Where do I sign?
You want kids?...fine w/me...go ahead 'n pay for them.
.
.

The pro-Prop. 82 promos are all over local TV stations lately.
I saw 2 of them back to back the other night.

Just think of all that pent-up sheople envy energy towards anyone generating annual $400k+/$800k+.
No surprise to me if it passes.

Vote NO! on Prop. 82.
Vote NO! on Meathead.
Vote NO! on Kalifornia.
.
.
Then we have the Gov.'s race.
'Hard to imagine what State Treasurer Phil Angelides, Dem., would NOT tax if he won.
That boy has been promising the moon.
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Old 05-18-2006, 06:20 PM
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I don't want to parrot the above good points, so suffice it to say that propositions like this almost make me feel ashamed to be a native born Californian.

Isn't the point of existing child tax credits and entitlements so that the parents have a little extra dough to feed and educate their kids? (Not to spend on crack or lotto tickets...)

I pay $530/month for my son's preschool right now. Hell if I want to pay for somebody else's school bills...(not like I would be subject to this proposed tax for now, but still)
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Old 05-18-2006, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
"In a report released Thursday, the National Institute for Early Education Research said it conservatively estimates the state would get back $2.78 for every $1 it invests in the Proposition 82 preschool program. That estimate is similar to a finding in a study done by the RAND Corp.

The savings would come through decreased school failure rates and subsequent problems such as delinquency, crime and lower productivity, researchers said."

Whoever believes this should have their head examined. Teaching little Johnny and Becky to sing "I'm a Little Teapot" in a group atmosphere is going to prevent bank robberies 20 years later? I think not.
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Old 05-19-2006, 06:45 AM
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Great. Just one more case where I have to pay someone else's way/
I paid for my kid's daycare at a very good christian school, now I am going to have to help pay for all the kids whose parents don't speak the language.
I already have to pay for their regular schooling, why not their pre-school?
What the heck happened to people having a little personal responsibility?
We deal our own cards.
If someone has more than me, chances are they deserve it and earned it. Maybe they got a better education, maybe they worked harder, whatever the reason I don't have the right to try and take part of it away from them and neither does anyone else.
Old 05-19-2006, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ckissick
Quote:
"In a report released Thursday, the National Institute for Early Education Research said it conservatively estimates the state would get back $2.78 for every $1 it invests in the Proposition 82 preschool program. That estimate is similar to a finding in a study done by the RAND Corp.

The savings would come through decreased school failure rates and subsequent problems such as delinquency, crime and lower productivity, researchers said."

Whoever believes this should have their head examined. Teaching little Johnny and Becky to sing "I'm a Little Teapot" in a group atmosphere is going to prevent bank robberies 20 years later? I think not.
Really? Why not? Would any number of studies change your mind?
Old 05-19-2006, 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by nostatic
Really? Why not? Would any number of studies change your mind?
I would be interested to see how a study was constructed to examine and support the above claim. I would love to get the contract to do such a study, I could retire.

Yeah, Angelides is going to win, and taxes will skyrocket
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Old 05-19-2006, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nostatic
Really? Why not? Would any number of studies change your mind?
Don't you see how easy it is to come to incorrect conclusions with this? I know you're a research scientist, so I defer but really?

So these studies go back and find that criminals usually didn't have preschool educations and thus this must be a contributing factor rather than an indicator?

The idea that you could ever contain a "control" study on something like this has to be deemed impossible. There is no way to isolate and/or level all other contributing factors.

The most likely truth is that those who got voluntary preschool had parents that gave a ****, forcing preschool will not make bad parents give a ****.


I guess I'm saying, "we've all heard this voodoo before".
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Old 05-19-2006, 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by nostatic
Really? Why not? Would any number of studies change your mind?
There are many studies that I don't believe, based on my instinct, that's all. Also, look at the name of the research group. Sounds biased to me. Have you read Freakonomics? It points out a huge number of bogus studies and ways to look at data to get a much better interpretation of data. And how data are usually looked at the wrong way.

I'll give an example from Freakonomics. Study after study after study said that private schools produce better citizens. But they always looked at data on people who volunteered to go to private shools or special public schools that were geared toward higher acheivers. But there was a case, I think in Denver, where the school district shuffled people around non-voluntarily. To condense a long chapter to one sentance, it was found that the school had no impact. It was the family and who the kid was that mattered.
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:03 AM
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Well, those are flawed studies. While the social sciences are always a challenge in this regard, I think there are studies that can provide valid data and interpretations.

In general I think education makes a difference. Of course the family environment is a huge part of it, but there are kids that excel despite a less-than-supportive surroundings.

In the lab I've seen my instincts be wrong on a number of occasions. I don't accept any study at face value, but I similarly don't reject them a priori either.
Old 05-19-2006, 09:13 AM
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Fair enough.

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Old 05-19-2006, 10:36 AM
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