The big fence debate

[scottmandue]

It seems like we all agree we need to do something about illegal immigration but let's talk about the practicality of building the big fence.

First off how many illegals do you suppose sneak across the boarder out in the middle of the desert Vs those who are smuggled in trucks, vans, and cars that are driven through the boarder stations?

Second, is a fence really going to stop them? They already are finding tunnels that they use to bring contraband into America from Mexico and what is to stop them from cutting holes in the fence once it is put up?

Third, I read that we are thinking of putting up a few hundred miles of fence... I also read that there is about two thousand miles of boarder.

Is anyone really buying into this "let's build a big fence between Mexico and America and that will solve the immigration problem"?

Personally I think the money would be better spent beefing up the INS, we know where the illegals are working.

[Rikao4]

not being a smarta** here, your house has doors ?
Rika

[Joeaksa]

I lived for years behind the biggest and most successful fence in the world, the Berlin Wall. It worked very well for many years and was felled only by political means, not anything else.

Yes, people did from time to time get around, over and under it but not many. Was in the Checkpoint Charlie museum just last week and it still surprised you on how well it worked.

Will a wall work between the US and Mexico? Who knows but we have to do something. I lived on the border years ago and there are a lot more people coming across in the remote areas than people realize. One other thing is that the Border Patrol agents have found both evidence of Moslems coming across (copies of the Koran) as well as caught the people themselves. Its not just Mexicans or Central Americans who are trying to get into this country illegally.

It needs to stop and needs to stop now. Beefing up the INS is only going to work if the Govt gives them the teeth to do their job. Here in Phoenix if they catch one or two illegals, they let them go. The local police do the same and grab them only if they are caught committing a crime.

If someone wants to come here, do it legally otherwise stay out. Just my 2c worth...

[sammyg2]

Fences make good neighbors.
It won't stop all of them but it sure will slow them down.

I say offenders need to be identifed when caught and repeat offenders need to spend some time in a detention camp before shipping them back.

Or, how about we use the same tactics that Mexico uses on their southern border? Crooked police that steal everything the immigrants have and then send them back or they hold them ransom until the family buys them back.
i wonder why presidente fox doesn't bring that up when he whines to bush.
If Mexico didn't have oil the illegal immigrant issue would be a non-issue.
The US government looks the other way just to keep from pissing off the mexican government.

[cashflyer]

We need something with laaazers.....



But seriously:

Make a 200yd wide dead zone along the entire border, with 10ft high chain-link, topped with concertina running the length at both the 0yd and 200yd lines. At the 100yd center line, make it 15ft concertina topped chain link, electricied by solar and wind generators (to be ecologically friendly).

The ground of the dead zone needs to be vegetation free. Add motion detectors that illuminate the area of movement with high intensity stadium lighting. And add sniper towers at necessary intervals along the path.

Finally, install seismic sensors at intervals in the zone to detect tunnelers.

Now you have border protection.

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by Rikao4
not being a smarta** here, your house has doors ?
Rika

+1

[widebody911]

Originally posted by cashflyer
We need something with laaazers.....

How about iguanas with frickin' laser beams?

[928ram]

We could post 'ole Wile E. on the border with his ACME catalog and a phone.


Lets incorperate a long-term solution while we're there; hang condoms on the Mexican side of the fence.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

A wall worked very well for the Chinese for centuries.

[Superman]

Like so many other Republican gubmit plans, I find this one hilarious. On the one hand, Republican prefer infettered markets. Absence of regulation. They grin and promise (correctly) that industry cannot be thwarted. That price vacuums WILL be filled. That protectionism is doomed.

And now they are telling us that fences will keep Mexicans from moving toward jobs that pay ten times what they earn in Mexico. That the United States can continue to be a high-wage haven where prosperity continues to increase for generations while the rest of the world's markets are very different.

Big Business is running this country and I wonder if anybody is starting to feel pressure between their buttocks?

At any rate, it is amusing to see this selected-application of basic free-enterprise principles. You guys are economics geniuses, obviously.

[928ram]

cabbage

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by Superman
At any rate, it is amusing to see this selected-application of basic free-enterprise principles. You guys are economics geniuses, obviously.

Not sure exactly how you're directing this, but let me state clearly my own position on the immigration situation: I do not care about them taking jobs. My concern is crime. Not just the potential for criminals to cross the border, but the fact that crossing the border illegally is, well, ILLEGAL.

I do not mind people immigrating to the US. In fact, I welcome them; PROVIDED THEY DO IT LEGALLY.

Fill out the forms. Pay the fees. Have the medical checks and the background checks. Wait your frikkin turn. And then, when you get the stamped approval on your forms, come on into the US of A. Stop by my house and I'll even give you a shiney new penny.

And just to be clear on the crime part, anyone crossing illegally could potentially be a terrorist operative. One of the reasons that we have an immigration process is to weed out the undesirable criminal element and terrorists. I think we should defend the border just as if we were defending against a hostile invasion force.


The US is my home. I don't leave my front door open, but I also don't stay barricaded in my house. When a person knocks, I check the door. If that person meets my approval, they can come in and have tea. And if they want to wash dishes and vacuum, well more power to them.


rutebega

[gaijindabe]

It is basically open now. And controlled by "coyotes" who get top dollar for their human cargo. You have kids and grandmothers coming across... It cannot be stopped 100% - but a 98% reduction would be a big difference.

[Rikao4]

Supe, do you lock your Porsche ?
parsley
Rika

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Rikao4
not being a smarta** here, your house has doors ?
Rika

As they say... locks only keep honest people out.

The Berlin wall, I don't know that facts on that but wasn't it guarded ever inch by guys with machine guns? Do we have the manpower to do that?

The great wall of China, it worked sometimes but not all the time, China did get invaded after they built the wall.

Besides what I am hearing they are planing on building is a "fence" not a "wall".

I'm not saying we should do nothing but can't we come up with something more high-tech than a giant fence?

Have any of you tried to keep a dog inside a fenced yard that was determined to get out?
Have we though of the maintenance nightmare a two thousand mile fence will be?

You don't think illegals have bolt cutters? Torches? Don't think they can steal a truck and drive it through the fence out in the middle of nowhere creating a gaping hole for their friends to get through?

[Dantilla]

Super, you know I lean towards the right, and I have a simple (hopefully not simple-minded) answer.

I believe in limited government, but there are things that are best done by government. By far, the most important role of government is to protect and defend the nation. Without that, the nation disappears into tomorrow's history books.

With the country protected against outside enemies, we are all free to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Wanting limited government is not the same as hating the government, something you regularly accuse conservatives. Government has it's proper roles, but left unchecked, government will outgrow it's proper roles into areas it does not belong. I am all for a government that is efficient and productive.

I wish for all people on this planet to have the same opportunities I have as an American. (Oops! Is that too compasionate?) But we need a big wall, on both borders, along with an efficient way to welcome those who want nothing more than the American dream.

[scottmandue]

Originally posted by Rikao4
Supe, do you lock your Porsche ?
parsley
Rika

and we all know locked cars never get stolen.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
A wall worked very well for the Chinese for centuries.

yes, and we could enslave the mexicans to build it. Brilliant!

[scottmandue]

Just to make sure I looked up some history on the great wall of China

"The Wall served well. Only when a dynasty had weakened from within were invaders from the north able to advance and conquer. Both the Mongols (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368) and the Manchurians (Qing Dynasty,1644-1911) were able take power, not because of weakness in the Wall but because of weakness in the government and the poverty of the people. They took advantage of rebellion from within and stepped into the void of power without extended wars. "

[scottmandue]

And specs on the Berlin wall, bit of a project to build one of these around our country.

Total border lenght around West Berlin: 96 mi / 155 km

Border between East and West Berlin: 27 mi / 43.1 km

Border between West Berlin and East Germany: 69 mi / 111.9 km

Border through residential areas in Berlin: 23 mi / 37 km

Concrete segment wall: 3.6m (11.81 ft.) high, 66 mi / 106 km

Wire mesh fencing: 41 mi / 66.5 km

Anti-vehicle trenches: 65 mi / 105.5 km

Contact or signal fence: 79 mi / 127.5 km

Column track: 6-7 m (7.33 yd) wide, 77 mi / 124.3 km

Number of watch towers: 302

Number of bunkers: 20

Persons killed on the Berlin Wall: 192

Persons injured by shooting: ca. 200