uh-oh...carrera GT lawsuit brewing

atlporsche · 06-09-2006, 04:26 AM

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jun2006/bw20060608_466074.htm

ya'll see this? or is it old news?

sjd

dynevahn · 06-09-2006, 04:32 AM

i think thats bull. Especially one in the 80's someone filed a lawsuit against porsche because the 911 turbo was too hard to handle for the drivers. I just dont get it.

rvanderpyl · rvanderpyl's Garage

Ah yes, America where being responsible for your own actions is unpatriotic.

I guess one defense can be that since he believed he he had a handling problem why was he driving the car instead of having it checked out? Lets face, any car has a 'handling problem' when the driver is incompetent.

morganb · morganb's Garage

Been a lot of discussion on Rennlist CGT forum on this over the past month. Very sad to see people die but racing on a track is always a risky business

Wavey · 06-09-2006, 04:39 AM

This is also covered a little more thoroughly in a recent issue of Sports Car Market, if anyone's interested.

72doug2,2S · 72doug2,2S's Garage

Uh Vander, doesn't that word "responsible" only apply to corporations?

Doh! my pencil droped on the floor and broke, OK who the heck is "Blackfeet Indian Writing Company #3" and where is my attorney?

Vander +1

k9handler · 06-09-2006, 04:59 AM

so what was defective with the CGT? Just cause it's tail happy is not a fact that something was not right. BTW, I do feel the family has the right to file...just hope the truth is found.

twobone · twobone's Garage

I think that at 145 mph, you automatically give up all rights to sue the car maker, unless the mechanics of the car fail.

At 55 mph I think you can expect a car to be able to keep you safe.

Then again, I think the family has a right to try, I just hope that reason prevails.

Also, don't you have to sign away the right to sue when you sign the track day waiver?

gestalt1 · 06-09-2006, 06:12 AM

ferrari, porsche and any other exotic car manufacturer does extensive setup tests and aero test to get there cars as stable as possible. a car that handles great at speeds 100mph and under will be tail happy at higher speeds - its a compromise. the carrera gt is definitly a car that requires an experienced driver if it is taken on the track but that is the responsibility of the owner. this accedent would not have happened if there was adequate run-off at the track and the ferrari driver was cheking the flag station. the only thing i take from this is that club racing is more dangerous than most think because of the lack of experience of many on the track. insurance companies will not cover club events if this becomes prevelent - the cost will become un-affordable and the whole activity will disappear. the waiver that everyone signs i think only clears the track of any responsibility.

Dueller · 06-09-2006, 06:21 AM

FWIW, note that the guest passenger is the one suing....not the owner/driver of the Porsche. But likely inevitable that the owner will join in the fray at some point.

wastintime · 06-09-2006, 06:37 AM

A friend of mine was actually there when it happened, according to him, the Carrera GT had literally nothing to do with the accident. The Ferrari that was let out of the pits never checked his mirrors, wrongfully crossed the blend line, and that was all she wrote. A ford focus would have had just as disasterous of an end.

Besides, read the helmet boxes: "Motorsports are inherently dangerous" Also, if this was a DE, didn't the guys sign the waivers?

dentist90 · dentist90's Garage

Who would have thought driving near 150mph could involve risk or be dangerous?
This is truly a tragic situation, an exhilarating day at the track gone horribly wrong for two families. But I also think the term 'racing incident' also applies. Shall I post a list of all the former F-1, Champ car, Nascar etc. drivers who have lost their lives at speed? Were their cars defective as well?
It is unfortunate in North American society (US in particular) that anytime someone does something stupid or an a bad thing happens there has to be someone (ELSE) to blame. The mirror seems to be the last place people look for responsibility.
I hope this lawsuit is really to help identify a real problem and remedy it, rather than punishing everybody else out of emotional hurt and anger or worse, financial greed.

Dueller · 06:55 AM

Well, Ayrton Senna's was...hence the remedial measures with tethered hub assemblies now on most upper echelon formula cars. Firestone got popped for putting unsafe race tires in the stream of commerce (Revson?). Nascar tracks now use safer barriers as a result of Petty's death. Lawsuits or the threat of lawsuits is a moving force to encourage organizers/manufacturers to take remedial measures they might not otherwise do.

The legal theories abound as to who may or may not be held liable in tort: assumption of risk, attractive nuisance, risk/utility analyses, yadadadadadada...

I really question the wisdom of allowing passengers to ride along in events where cars are running 145 mph and up.

dentist90 · dentist90's Garage

Of course the passenger in question could be a driving instructor, too. I'm sure some of them have been in some spins.
Another factor to be considered in assessing liability is foreseeability. Was the outcome a foreseeable consequence of one's actions?

Dueller · 06-09-2006, 07:17 AM

From the article it seems the passenger was a Lambo owner who went along for a ride to see if he might be interested in a GT....so doesn't appear to be an instructor.

dentist90 · dentist90's Garage

Yea, I know he was just another enthusiast. I'm just saying that there are situations where you can see a passenger being sanctioned to be onboard at speed. I guess the navigator in a rally race puts his neck on the line, too, but I may be getting off-topic here.
Sounds to me like the Ferrari driver didn't merge safely out of the pits and cut the guy off. Whether or not a skilled driver could have avoided the collision is another question. But if I were entering a high speed corner and the guy in front of me had an oil line let go I don't know that I would sue the driver for poor maintenance, Porsche for poor design and the track for not getting an oil flag out in time. ***** happens when you drive fast... it's when physics combines with human frailty.

Dueller · 07:48 AM

Or put another way: Speed doesn't kill you...its the sudden stop that does that.

The instructor point is well taken. But in a student/instructor situation, there is an inherent assumption that the instructor is technically in control of the student...or at least should be. i.e., the instructor has the authority to shut down bad behavior or terminate the session. As an instructor myself, I tell new students they aren't going to impress me with their speed or dramatic "saves" or other such shenanigans but rather their smoothness and lines.

Having raced W2W for 20+ years, I can say there are risks/moves I make in a racing situation that I would never attempt with a passenger on board.

From the article and the limited accounts of this particular accident, it appears you had an owner showing another driver what the car would do...IMO a recipe for disaster in most instances. But I don't have all the facts and it may have been unavoidable regardless of an oversteer problem or not. Still, it makes me a little nervous when "ride alongs" at race speeds are permitted.

charleskieffner · 06-09-2006, 08:00 AM

......................."RACING IS AN INHERENTLY DANGEROUS SPORT!" nuff said!

Plavan · Plavan's Garage

Complete crap. They were on a race track. They know it is dangerous. Things happen that people cannot control. The wife is just looking for yet another hand out.
It's sad that the two fellows died, but there is no need to go to court about it. They were out doing something they WANTED to do.
Thats it, I'll take PP to court.... PP makes me spend too much money on my car.... It's Waynes fault

Huh · 08:31 AM

They were at a DE event not racing. It seems that maybe the Ferrari club didn't put him in the proper group or maybe the people incharge didn't manage the event properly. I know in my first DE event they put me in the novice class and always had an instructor in my car until I earned my 'solo' sticker. I ran 2 laps on my own before I spun out. I came in talked to the pit boss went out for 1 more lap and brought her back in. I think that if you are not an instructor and possess a high hp'd car, it is the responsibility of the event coordinators to make sure that the driver is capable of handling his/her car before letting he/she drive solo. Many people take their new cars to DE events to learn the characteristics of the car. Even if you are seasoned remember you don't know the characteristics of your new car until you get seat time.