so they're evil...what do we do?
 

Let's accept the premise that the lionshare of terrorism is perpetrated by Muslims. Let's ignore the cause and effect arguments for a moment, and just work with that since it seems to be a major point being made by many here.

So what are you going to do about it? Do you exclude people from this country based on their religion? Based on their skin color and heritage? Or do we scour the globe and exterminate them based on these criteria? Or ?

Don't get me started.

It sounds bad, but the only solution is not-politically-correct.

Here's a random thought. I say we listen to them, try to really understand what their issues are and help them resolve those issues. I am not convinced that their "terrorism" is a rooted in their religious ideology. I think it is economically driven and driven by the fact that the US evidently feels the need to convert the world to it's way of thinking (PNAC).

I think that if the United States spent just a small portion of the money we spent on defense and military actions on trying to help these people out somewhat, we would see larger dividends paid in the "war on terror".

I have probably just branded myself as a naive idiot, but that's OK. I have no religious ideology of my own, so I don't see this as an "us vs them" kinda thing.

Mike

Ooooh, bop bop bop
Ooooh, bop bop bop

They took all the trees, and put em in a tree museum
And they charged the people a dollar and a half to see them
No, no, no
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot




I kid I kid:D

Interesting question.

How did we handle it when the Nazis were in power and exterminating Jews?

Did we say "Hey wait a sec...let's all sit down and think about WHY the Nazis want to exterminate the Jews and rule Europe"??

If the liberals of today had their way back then, that's exactly what would have happened. Joseph Kennedy was the type to think that way - an early liberal who supported Chamberlain's policy of appeasement.

Two choices really.

1) Relative isolationism. Withdraw militarily and politically. We will continue to be a target if our financial support of Israel continues, but perhaps to a lesser degree if we withdraw.

2) Conduct an "old fashioned" war. Seize the country and it's goverment and all the assets including the oil fields. Claim them as spoils of war and prepare to defend our new territory.

Neither choice seems too appealing...

My previously posted anti-terrorism plan;

Let me start by saying I am not in favor of the military excursion in Iraq. Nor am I a lefty apologist who thinks America is responsible for most what's wrong in the world. We are still a superpower, and everywhere we go leaves a bigger footprint.

Here's how I see it; The Mullahs and Imams and Saddams have one thing in common. They cling to power with the tenacity of a pit bull. To keep power, they imprison and murder the political opposition, even relatives. Some are religious hardliners, some are secular power brokers. They may not fear death, but loss of power is unthinkable.

Why not announce to the world that we intend to establish a covert-ops superfund. Tell the third world that we intend to infiltrate every level of government, buying and stealing secrets in an attempt to thwart terrorism. If our clandestine research reveals credible evidence that your nation has knowingly supported, harbored or sheltered terrorist organizations, you will be removed from power. There will be no invading army or occupying force. No attempt at nation building. Your leaders will simply disappear. Perhaps in the middle of the night at the hands of a team of specialists, perhaps in a single blinding flash of a cruise missle as your government assembles. Whatever new leaders arise to fill the leadership vacuum of your departure is of no consequence to us. We will deliver to them the same message you just received; we will not abide the sanctioning of terrorists.

Perhaps with the proper "motivation" the Saudi royal family and the Mullahs and Imams might actually police themselves.

Just a thought.

put em on a steady diet of lsd and porc meat...


somebody gimme an award , coz you know i cracked the case with total efficiency...

And neither will work. The only path is to continue being aggressive rooting out the terrorist-minded segment of islam world-wide. Europe, and the US, needs to clamp down on immigration from islamic countries until they get their act together and can be trusted. Final establishment of self-sufficient free democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan will greatly stabilize that region of the world. Indonesia, India and other southeast Asian countries also need a major housecleaning of extremists, and not be letting mass-murderers go after a short prison sentence.

Latest 'religion of peace' video out today.

Hamas: Islam will conquer US and Britain

Take all their money - don't buy ME oil

LOL

Do everything we can to fuel the spread of Democracy and Capitalism, including overthrowing despots and tyrants and returning countries to their people...and engaging them in world commerce.

If only we had a leader with the balls to try something like that....well hell we might even avoid the upcoming religious world war altogether! One can dream...

The only thing that will work is if somehow the "moderate" muslims decide to kick the @ss of their own extremists. Otherwise, the conflict will always be framed as the infidels vs the holy ones (who are willing to die, etc, etc).

Often times, one hears that the reason for the successes of these types of ideologies comes from the basis of economic inequities. (It certainly was the genesis of the Nazi approach to the Jewish citizens of europe as well - those evil Jews have all the money, let's confiscate it and kill the "lower race" which is polluting our country.) In the case of the Muslim terrorist, this underlying economic issue is then twisted and melded into a religious conflict where gullible members are encouraged to become martyrs (helps that no one has shown up saying there really are not 100 virgins in the next 9 heavens).

So, who wants to give the terrorists all yo' money?

I'm down with the covert-ops superfund... how about we then target all the Clerics/religious leaders that advocate Jihad and round them up and drop them on a island somewhere to fight among themselves.

Or how about have some of our special ops guys start popping those leader that are pro Jihad from a thousand yards away... bet the "religion of peace" would become just that in a short time.

give them small arms - step back - 5 years later when they have eliminated 80% of the population we go in and either negotiate from a position of strength or we conquer.

We tried that with a liquer store and gun shop on every corner of the inner cities and that never really worked out:D

There was a thread on a MINI cooper forum similar to this one and it was a couple of years back.

I proposed a VERY politically incorrect solution and recieved a lot of backlash over it.

Believe it or not this exchange occured on an MINI forum. MINI forums are famous for being overly PC and arguments over anything are not tolerated at all.

seriously guys, LSD, your CIA did enough testing during MKULTRA to know the facts : give acid to a soldier, and the nett result is : he no longer wants to soldier on...



dang , i think i just got booted of the dutch porsche forum , something about me beeing rude or something... lol good riddance, that chickensj1t outfit was boring me to tears...

My personal opinion:

Isolation won't work. We've kept Castro isolated for 50 years and he still is thumbing his nose at the US, long after the death of real communism. If we dropped the embargo, I'd give it about a year before El Presidente "retired" to a seaside villa and Havana became Las Vegas South.

The biggest weapon we have is CULTURE....Hollywood, Free trade, Capitalism, rap music, Jessica Simpson, Coca-Cola and a pack of Marlboros....all of it. The good, the bad and the ugly. The whole shebang. We export it to the rest of the world and they seem pretty pleased, even if they don't always admit it.

Get them hooked, and they will soon forget about this "Jihad" crap and get down to making money.

Yeah, you don't need them. You fit right in with the rest of us over here.

yep
and that one for sure is a weapon of mass destruction...
especially the Rap music Simpson combination.. that's like a double whammy... if i had to choose between no other music for the rest of my life, but the current rap& J Simpson... or Zyklon B , seriously , i'de go for the ZB..at least it's quick...

i think i've been well adjusted to PP OT
there should be a wall of honour of some sort
with prizes

the most radical phylosofy
the most unbelievable liar
the rudest dingbat
the most useless posts
most likely to end up in prison

etc etc

i mean , everybody can be a winner in some category... right?

:D:D:D:D:D

IMHO, that would be trying to 'understand' why fireants bite.

They bite, and that's that.

Now, I won't disparage a WHOLE religion. There ARE muslims who are pissed at terrorists and their inhuman actions.

... so, this is not a 'kill them all' situation. I'm ALL FOR killing ALL terrorists, and those that endorse, train, lead, and plan their violence... but not in a way that would harm innocent people.

It's just a touchy, tricky, one-size-does-NOT-fit-all situation.

Agree. Funny thing is that both Michael and I have lived in a Muslim country. Too bad neither of us know anything on the subject I guess ...

If the Democrat think-tanks thought they could damage Bush and regain power by blaming fireant bites on Bush and Republicans, they would...These are the people that tried to blame global warming on GW Bush, suggesting his environmenal policies led to Katrina.

aah Mull, there's definately an award for you on the OT wall of honour i proposed :D

Attention whore?

that too

:D

lol, it's official, been banned from the porscheforum in holland

moderator had been cutting creatively in my posts, for not other reason then aesthetics and i called him out for it... wouldn't give me an answer,
started a power trip of " because i said so " so after a few comments back and forth i called him a NSB'er ( basically a nazi collaborator, they are VERY touchy feely about that here consindering the dutch are the only nation that had 100 000 + collaborations effectively putting folks on the train to Poland )... fine really , i had been bored on their forum for weeks , something about elitist Porsche snobism that doesn't work for me ... you gotta like the "or if" message " you're to rude and ignant to own a Porsche you should be more like the brand and be a good sport apologize now or i shall ban you " ..

should have sent em this one

http://www.speedgear.com/cw2/Assets/...ull/AW5942.jpg

to late now , banned... i blame myself for not thinking about the pic when i had the chance, mea culpa, mea culpa , mea maxima culpa...

In the ol days we would have delt wit dem accordingly, now the cats outa da bag an you have to pretend to care and be nice.

Hit them with some good ol fashion marketing of America. People tend to get all religious when times are tough. Best why to deal with these are to get them fat and saucy. They should do that the the prisoners. Those guys have had ***** forever, GitMo is a vacation. I say really butter them up. Git'n some cheap hos and plenty of fat beef to naw on. Milkshake and Jerry Springer their arses in leather LazyBoys till they all weigh 300+lbs, send them back home. They spread the word that America is the place.

In the mean time, close off the boaders and have them beg for a peice. We set up lil Americas in a few cities and before you know it, those Islamic temples will be strip clubs and Starbucks! Problemo Solvedo!

This entire discussion is useless, according to many. It seeks to understand the cause and source of this problem. That is not necessary. This whole thing is exceedingly simple and I can verify that evaluating the rationale behind an "administration" policy is indeed useless.

We don't care where this problem comes from. We wouldn't act on that information if we had it. We've already got the solution, and it completely disregards any and all analytical intelligence.

We're going to bomb them. And we're going to shoot them. Until they are happy. Or at least until they stop hating us. Or perhaps until they are too frightened to fight back.

that's our brilliant plan. And obviously.......it's working beautifully.

I still like my idea best.

Our current strategy is like killing ants with a sledgehammer.

Why not target the leaders and start picking them off?

Eventually I would think that would take the wind out of their sails.

Do it the easy way. Pay the Mossad $1 mil a head. Start with the top and go down.

Considering what we have spent in the past three years in the ME with this situation it would be a bargain...

"They" are not evil, although it is often difficult to think otherwise: read, "Tribes Without Flags"... or read Kippling or Churchills, "History of the World".

The more things change. The reason radical Muslims in the Middle East have a world stage is rooted in oil, both from a strategic standpoint and the power of deep pockets to fund their unique brand of terror.

Options include:

1. Dampen the world's thirst for oil. Not likely. China's emergent middle class wants exactly what you and I want: oil. The immutable law of supply and demand (not just China) apply and is clearly out of our sphere of influence.

2. Dampen OUR (US) thirst for oil. Possible, but not likely. The confluence of non-existent political will (expressed as policy), wasteful counsumer habits and our frightening lack of mass transit infrastructure is daunting.

3. Increase domestic supply of oil...or at least Notrh American oil supply through new exploration or drilling known reserves . NIMBY uber ales...see political will. We'll see new drilling of proven reserves when:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1151097915.jpg

4. Alternative fuels, energy or mass transit infrastruture.. We have no coherent plan that either the private sector of our stallwart pols can agree on. France is a leader in atomic power, we're...DC Metro?

5. Walk from the ME. Yes we can, but we should be mindfull of the repercussions.

Who cares if Castro thumbs his nose at us, unless he finds oil.

In my naive fire ant way, this is kinda what I was after. Our philosophy of "the bombings will continue until morale improves" isn't going to work. I deeply believe that to be true.

I think it would be easier to win over the hearts and minds of the moderate Muslims and defuse the tensions that spark the radical extremists. At least it might turn the tide of popular opinion against them. I realize it sounds all touchy-feely, but I don't mean it that way.

The current mentality of "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out" isn't working. I think we should mind our own business to a great extent, but still carry a big stick. And use it when necessary. Like on the Taliban post 9/11. That was the right thing to do. Iraq has been a colossal waste of time and has only served as the recruitment poster for the Islamic extremists.

Mike

Hell, you should be proud! I wasn't good enough to be banned from the S registry board, so I logged off. I also resigned from R Gruppe. Personal reasons. But I did get tired of "rules" and being told there were "No exx-ceptions". (The spelling is not mine in the quoted word). :D

(edit) On the terrorist question? "Do unto others as they do to you." Screw this turn the other cheek crap!

Terrorism backfired when they bombed Saudi Arabia, etc. There is ongoing tension on whether to support them or not. Saudi Arabia doesn't as well as other old friends anymore. Remapping takes time in these situations.

The penalty for terrorism must exceed the carnage inflicted. If a successful terrorist was sentenced to death as well as his whole family there would be less terrorists available.