Am I wrong to not give paint formula away for free?
 

Some time back I needed the formula for "Viper Green". My paint store didn't have it on file and couldn't get it from PPG's archive. I had to pay for several "test" pints in order to get the correct color. Keep in mind that just having the "test" color was only half the battle. I still had to spray samples which meant material costs and labor costs. The formula was discovered by trail and error but was fine in the end.
Fast forward a couple months.
A salesman from the paint store calls me and asks if I still have the formula. This is not a salesman I deal with, he covers a different area. I reply that I do have the formula. He asks if he can come over and copy it. I replied "NO" and explained that I paid to have the formula perfected and that if soemone is requesting that color specifically that they are most likely painting a Porsche and I didn't feel I was obligated to help someone who may be my competition.
I ended our conversation saying that he could copy the formula for $45.00, the cost of a pint of paint.
He feels as though I'm being an a$$
What do you think?

Re: Am I wrong to not give paint formula away for free?
 

Well, maybe not an ass, but you're not flowing with human kindness either.

Tell him you would be glad to give him the formula if he refunds the cost for all the paint that was not quite right.

No, you are not being unreasonable at all.

Re: Re: Am I wrong to not give paint formula away for free?
 

Your right in that regard. But when I walk into the paint store the only thing flowing is my cash.

IMO, you paid to get the color right, so you have ownership.
If he wants it, he has to pay to get it right just like you did.
clear as mother's milk.

From personal experience, I know that if the paint shop gets it wrong, it's tough titty. For example, I found that the PPG forumla for "VW Coral Red" is closer to "ameobic dysentery"

I'm sure some sort of a deal could be worked out, but you'd be a foo' to just give it away.

No doubt! My point is that this paint store doesn't give anything for free and this particular salesman has never done anything for me. I think he's either got a big pair of brass ones or thinks I'm stupid and don't realize the value of my own experience.

.............

Cue up the old west gunfight music and tell the tumbleweeds they're on in one...

If he wanted to ante up some of the test pint money then I say make a deal. Did they offer to refund you on the test pints that weren't the color you need? Nope. Hey this is strictly business.

Hey Kevin...I and a fellow enthusiast know the Sikkens formula for Irish green...he sent me a batch of sample sprays...Cindy & I compared all with the underneath of my car's hood...which hasn't seen a lot of sunlight since it was sprayed by the factory in '72. So tell me, since you are commercial enterprise, should I give you this info for free??? I'll give you a hint...the formula of today based on the door jam color code ain't it!

Think you did the right thing. Basically it was like " Hey if you want it right you gotta pay" Now they want what you paid for, to probably sell to someone else?? No deal.

I do think you're being pissy, but your job provides your livelihood, and I don't blame you one bit.

Kev;

Your time is money. I even worry about coming by and visiting, knowing you are stopping being productive. Is why I usually don't stay long. You don't get paid for being social or polite.

I suppose it was actually more than 30 minutes or you would have just called BASF to begin with? If you run the paint store and need a formula call the manufacturer...something perhaps you could have done the first time around and saved Kevin $45 if it was really as easy as a phone call. Moot point on your part.

I read that and thought the exact same thing! D'oh!!!!!!!!!

Crunch,

If this was for your car and you know Kevin, why didnt you spend the few minutes to walk down to his shop and talk with him personally? Had he known that it was for a Pelican or especially someone he does business with in the future bet he would have helped.

After all, he spent his time and money on this figuring this out. Walking down there and possibly taking a 12 pack of beer with you probably would have gotten it for free (or almost) and made a friend into a better friend.

Just my 2c worth.

This thread is confusing to me; it's like listening in on a phone conversation between 2 strangers. Who is Capt. Crunch? Another body shop owner? Paint store owner? Why did you have a salesman call Kevin and not reveal that the formula was for you, his helpful friend who has "sent helpers" to him? It was for your personal car? :confused:

Bizarre.

.............

Crunch,

Pick up the bloody phone and call Kevin. Tell him the situation and doubt that he would have said no, but having someone else contact him and not tell him who its for would merit a no in my book as well.

You might control the pricing structure for the parts purchased for his business, but he controls where he buys these parts. Stop acting like a jerk and realize that he can buy elsewhere.

The two of you need to go out for a beer at a tittie bar and stop fighting each other. As well if you really are a sales rep, start acting like one and work with your account.

Just my 2c worth but I was a very successful sales rep for many years and was very good at my job. Customers can vote with their feet and checkbook and do when the sales reps start feeling like their business is theirs without working the account.

Kevin-

"You could have saved me some time today, but you felt that you and my store manager spent too much time finding a "close" match with PPG."

It wasn't the time that your boss spent that I felt was excessive. I have never failed to voice my appreciation for the time, effort and consideration that has been extended by John,Kathy or any of the counter staff at "your" store.

"You do have discounts with my paint store"

Anybody shop in town gets the same or greater discount that I'm getting. Sorry but that doesn't make me feel special.

"and I did make a suggestion for you to use a better clear coat that would be more cost effective last week."
It's your JOB to promote the products offered at your store and because you do I'm supposed to owe you a favor?

"I also have been sending "helpers" to help you out since our mutual friend here on the board asked me to help you out. If they were not able to find you buried in a lot with 15 smaller no-name shops,"

Your front counter has a job list that is printed and maintained for anyone walking in off the street looking for a job, most body shop supply stores do. So your really not going out of your way for me are you? And I have never been or asked to be listed on this sheet because the average worker looking at these sheets DON'T meet the standards I maintain when hiring employee's. As for "15 smaller no name shops", there are only 4 tennants in this complex my shop is the only one without a sign (no name). I get an average of 200 customers a year thru this no name shop Someone is finding me just fine when they want to.

"it was not my fault, but i'm sure you remember me stopping by to ask you if they turned out."

Yes indeed you have.

"Kevin, I have never asked you for a thing. Nothing. Today I needed a paint code for my car."

Your accurate in that you have never asked for anything. When you asked for the code I explained one of my reasons for saying "no" was because I wasn't inclined to provide the information I paid to get just pass it on to someone who may very well be my compitition. If this were for your car it may have made a difference to me had I known that. Why didn't you speak up then and tell me it was for your car? I have never failed to be generous to the community (it wasn't untill now that I knew your were a member on PP) that I earn a living from. Ask anyone.

"It took me about 30 minutes to get the BASF Glasurit 55 paint formula for Kelly/Viper Green #225".

If it were that easy why wasn't it done back when I needed the code?
Oh I remember now $$$$ I paid for the sample colors.

"You could have let me WALK down the alley to your shop, but you needed 45 bucks for it".

That would be the same alley I walk down when I come to (insert store name here) and spend my money.

"Did you spend time on the paint formula? Yes".
Wrong! I spent money,

"Did you make a bad judgement call today? Yes".
I'm truely sorry you feel this way. But at last viewing the general public opinion was in favor of my decision.

"Oh, the call to BASF was free."
Would have free when I needed the formula also.

Kevin P.

At the end of the day, I have a a three stage Glassuit paint for my car. I have to paint a grey'ish white base, then use the green over the base. I hope it turns out a nice as it looks in the can.

No harm no foul.

Lets go back in time when i didnt know you and you didnt know me.



JC

This may be a stupid question but isn't the formula on the "SmartColor" CD?

The paint manufacturers( not the dealers) are hesitant/ reluctant to provide this kind of support hardware to small specialty shops mainly because we don't spend the big bucks that production body shops spend.

Seriously? We have a small shop and were one of the original 50 (I think) shops to get the CDs. If you want I can see if we have one I can send you.

The formula is on the Cd, but the formula I received over the phone had different amounts of yellow and blue.. I guess that happens with older colors..

It looks very close, but it will be a complete. I don't need to worry about matching existing paint. Everything was just bead blasted off a couple days ago.


Capt. Crunch

That would be great. Let me know what I can do to return the favor. I wish I got this kind of treatment from my paint store!

Here you go.

http://www.glasurit.com/COLOR/new-color-online/m1frameset.php?language=1

This is one of those times when the Internet makes thing look WAY worse than they really are. If this were carried on face to face it probably would not have blown out of proportion.

You guys should shake hands and forget this happened, you are both Porsche guys and pelicans so forgive and forget.

Besides your in the same business and next to each other, on that level it would behoove you to make nice.

Now stop acting like children or I will pull this car over and spank the two of you!

He started it!

I like Joe's idea... titties have amazing healing properties!

Especially when they are serving tequila! And after 10 minutes doubt that both of you would be discussing paint forumla's!

Here is the part I don't get. This entire situation could have been handled differently from the beginning. I do not paint cars, but I do use paints and coatings everyday. When my competition (or anyone else) has a color made up at a supplier, there is a record card or some sort of invoice which is kept so the product can be made again at a later date. Why didn't you (Cap'n) simply call the supplier and order the same color as Kevin? If he was making up multiple samples of a color, then the last color made is most likely the one which was accepted. Once the sample was applied and approved, was there another order made for additional product of the accepted formulation? If I am on a project and another contractor did the phase before me, if I know the supplier, I call them and have them send me the same stuff. Maybe I missed something, Kevin did you request that this formula not be shared with other customers as part of an agreement with the supplier?

no, imho you made the bad judgement call. Kevin posted a thread with anonymous characters. Only one or two people here likely know who the actual players are, and they have enough sense not to chime in with details. For all the rest of us, it would have remained anonymous/hypothetical.

Until you chimed in becuase you felt personally hurt and then made everything public in an attempt to "defend your honor." Or piss of Kevin. Or a little from column A, a little from column B...

If you want my opinion (which you likely don't, but I'll offer it anyway) in the future you might want to take car of this f2f instead of "defending your honor" in public. Had you not posted, no one here would have been the wiser.

Have a beer, paint your car (if it is your car), and fuggetaboutit.

I got $500 that says that won't happen. :D

I will check and see if we have an extra. I think we get a new CD every other month or so. If I am able to send you one I will expect an 89 or newer 928 delivered to my door. I prefer black with tan interior but will accept a dark metallic one if I have to. Happy to help when I can.

I'm not ridin' to Vegas in this heat...

Indeed, you do. Nice guy, you are.

Me neither. We can meet in San Diego instead until it cools down!

Tell me when. I'm itchin' for some miles... (although its only a little over 100 from here).