The word theory, as defined in Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

The “theory” of evolution is not “conjecture” or “speculation” or “opinion.” The theory of evolution is an explanation of what we see in nature. It is capable of predicting future occurrences (that animals will continue to evolve, not necessarily what they will evolve into), and it is testable. If there were one observation, one experiment, that showed the theory were wrong, it would be thrown out or revised. This has not happened.

Re: Evolution vs creationism
 

Here’s another example of what Aurel, in the very first post in this long thread, was referring to:

Museum uses bible to tell earth's history

I just don’t get how they can say things like humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth together and get away with it. They are passing this information off as fact, when it most clearly is not.

Man has not evolved from monkeys. Man is his own monkey, a species distinct from other monkeys.

Polystrate
 

To pick up on my earlier post, what do people know about Polystrate Fossils? As I mentioned earlier, I didn't buy into the speaker's position that the existance of these fossils was absolute refutiation of the scientific chronology of creation and thus proof of the "Creationist's" view. But they do seem to pose an interesting question about how such fossils came it being.

A) The original organism was covered in some sort of a mud-slide.
B) The fossil was displaced by geological events (I don't buy this since then the strata would be displaced too I'd think. (See image 20 on page 6 of the link)
C) The plant fossil was mis-identified.

What do people think? How did these fossils come about?

Apparently, the vertical whale fossil has already been discredited, reinforcing my opionions of the strident creationist once again. Lies and deception don't do a good job of proclaiming God's word.

That's true. But God isn't trying to sell you something. This isn't a popularity contest or marketing to the lowest common denominator.

It is what it is.

jluetjen,


not my particular area however here is another good link as to why and how:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html

Yup Zuffen, I found that site for the "Con" view and this site for the "Pro" view. As I said, I don't think that Creationists are doing themselves any favors hanging their arguments on Polystrate fossils. You certainly won't find me making any theological arguments based on them.

Yeah, I saw that "pro" site as well, not a very well put together argument...

Romans 8:29-30.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I'm no expert on polystrate fossils, and I doubt any of you are either. I’ve read some of the above links, as well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossils . I don’t see anything that would make me think they disprove evolution. In fact, I see that mainstream geology has good explanations for them.

Scientists have known about these fossils for a long time. If they disproved evolution, it would have happened a long time ago, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

The Bible deals quite clearly with the Age of Understanding.

Either God knows what you will choose and you therefore have no free will. Or God allows you choice, and is therefore not omniscient.

Loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth.

So Gandhi goes to hell? Hard to wrap my heart around that one.

There is considerable discussion within the Christian community regarding the value of "good works". Without going into details, the camps kind of break out like this...

- If you do good works, it will help to make you receptive to the Holy Spirit (assuming that you somehow have heard the Word of God), and you will come to believe and be saved.

- If you believe through the Holy Spirit, you will do good works.

It's kind of a Chicken and Egg type of discussion.

As I said earlier, it's not for us to judge what is in other's hearts. Whether Gandhi is saved or not is up to God. As a Christian, it's my duty to be available to share and tell the truth about God's Word with people who want to learn about it. If Gandhi heard about Jesus (as I'm pretty sure that he did), and chose to turn away, it's kind of like a poor innocent man in court turning away a top shelf court appointed lawyer. Do so at your own risk. Given that nobody's perfect, you won't have much to stand on.

Stuart you again are trying to force God into your box. Let me put it to you this way:

Imagine for a second that God exists and that God was responsible for creation. Just for the sake of argument, consider that for a moment. Consider how powerful and intelligent and awesome that being would be.

Now then, can you consider that a being that is capable of creating the universe and the laws that govern it would also be capable of existing outside those laws? Would that being be able to perform things that would not make logical sense to humans?

Certainly not one of the easiest verses to understand. Here is some related discussion and additional verses for consideration. It's obviously not cut and dried.

As a non-believer, it's my duty to be available to share and tell the truth about the fantasy called God's Word with people who want to learn about it and all of the nonsense associated with it. It is my life's work..

Thanks for this wonderful image, Klauke.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1154358645.jpg

And since when have we had prayer in school?????????

Oh that's right, I forgot. I am a Christian, therefore I must be about the business of shoving my beliefs down everyone's throat and establishing a theocracy in the US. Silly me, I forgot. :rolleyes:

I've no doubt that it's your life's work. But why do you feel compelled to be anti-God rather the pro-Science? That's what gets me. I'd find you far more enlightening if you'd spend more time espousing the strength's of your views and answering questions, rather then to constantly be telling me and other Christians how stupid you think we are. I don't find anything remotely useful, interesting or enlightening about a beligerant, hateful philosophy. Unfortunately that's how you come across.

So at the heart of it lies this.

"The doctrine of predestination does not mean that God is unjust, deciding that some people will be saved and that others will be lost. Mankind, because of Adam's Fall in the Garden of Eden, sinned by free choice.
Thus, no person deserves salvation. But God's grace is universal. His salvation is for "everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16)."

And this is utter nonsense.

And circular. God created Adam. God created to Adam to "sin".

I wish I'd thought of religion. Id have that GT3 by now.

Yeah, this is the crux of a discussion I had with some JWs that knocked on the door many years ago. I asked about a child born in China to Taoist parents. If the baby dies, where does it go? According to these fine missionaries, the baby wasn't baptized so it goes to hell. No matter where it was born or what the circumstances. That pesky original sin. I just can't see a compassionate God working that way, or at least the way *I* have found a higher power. Hence my rejection of dogmatic religion...

No the baby does NOT go to hell, but a good place, but without the presence of God, that being the only shortcoming. Please pay attention and get your story straight.

I love it when people bash religion and do not know squat about it.

Actually, that varies depending on which Christian religion you're talking about.....

Now, see that makes perfect sense.

You couldnt script some of this stuff.

I can find any number of Christians who will tell me otherwise. There are many sects that believe no baptism = hell. Period. End of story. Maybe yours doesn't...

what is this "good place" you speak of? Purgatory? Limbo?

Limbo is the word, not Purgatory.

Just because a so called christian is speaking dosen't mean he knows what he is talking about.

It's Purgatory in the Catholic faith...

Amen.

I have been accused of god bashing when all I did was use your own type of statements against you. You'll never find anyone more pro-science than myself. But you keep denying the science and continue to make halfbaked statements that are nonsense. I will not respect illogical arguments or statements that are just unsupported opinion or insight as to what the "true" christians believe or follow. The track record for deaths cause by christians of all stripes is many millions. Collectivly your way leeds only to hatred and bigoty. Look at the way you speak about other christians, re-read the posts by just the christians, all with claims the others have it wrong, but the posters have got or follow the real deal. It is all so wrong. If you can have duty to inflict your nonsense, that it is perfectly correct for me to spend my life saving people from your tripe.

I'm afraid you are confused...

There is no hell where people are punished or tortured.
Dead are not conscious of anything...Body returns to dust.
Eccl 9:5,10
And, infant baptism serves no purpose as it is unscriptural.

How old was Jesus at his baptism?


KT

You are wasting your time. Times up.

In the bible it say "they will have to know that I am Jehovah".

Everyone will know this when this world system ends at Armageddon.

Then what?

"But, but, but"...too late.


Just like when the ark door closed and the rain started...
"Let us in, let us in"...too, late.


KT

Cat....Ask your mother!

I'm just passing on what I've been told by some bible thumpers. But maybe I am confused. Is the following (from wikipedia) not accurate?

The Christian idea of Hell is different from the Sheol of Judaism. The nature of Hell is described in the New Testament on several occasions. For example, in Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29-30, Matthew 8:12, Matthew 22:13, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:41-46, Luke 3:9, Luke 12:5, Luke 13:28, Luke 16:19-28, and Revelation 12:9, Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10, Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 21:8; in the Book of Revelation Hell is also mentioned as the "abyss" and "the Earth". Jesus himself describes Hell as a place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth"; this quotation has frequent appearance in the New Testament.

The population of Hell comprises the souls of those who died without accepting Christ as their saviour, God's grace, in sin and without repentance, although beliefs on these categories differ among Christian denominations. Some consider the fate of righteous people who lived before the time of Christ (thus being non-Christian through no fault of their own) a complication, especially for the many righteous Jews of the Old Testament. In some traditions, these people went straight to Heaven despite not being Christians because Christ had not come and gone yet. In other traditions, they had to wait in Limbo until the Harrowing of Hell during the three days between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection.

According to Western Christian beliefs, the Devil and his angels (demons), who are receiving punishment, reside in hell along with the souls of the damned. This doctrine is not part of Eastern Orthodox teachings. Yet, Matthew 25:41 mentions the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 can be interpreted to mean that after the Day of the Lord those who were condemned to Hell will remain there physically, tormented by eternal fire that will never consume them nor be extinguished - although Revelation 20:14-15 can be interpreted to mean Hell is death rather than eternal torment.

According to Luke 16:19-28 (Lazarus and Dives) nobody can pass from Hell to Heaven or vice versa, and fire is not the only tormentor, thirst being another, and more that are not described; in this biblical passage it is also mentioned that the souls that are in Hell can see those that are in Heaven and vice versa. Many view this story as a parable, and as such, believe its meaning may not literally define the existence in the afterlife, but instead serve as a lesson about the dangers of wealth and the unwillingness to listen to God.

If the bible says the dead can not feel anything or know anything, how would a hell of fire have any effect on them.

Hades or Sheol, "hell" if you will, is simply the grave.
It's not a place. It's a condition...dead.

Adam was never threatened with eternal torment if he sinned.
He was warned that he would die...Return to the dust.

Perfect justice does not require everlasting punishment for 70-80 years of mistakes.


KT

Are the above passages not right then?

Revelation 21:8 (King James Version)

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Luke 16:19-28 (King James Version)

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Matthew 25:41-46 (King James Version)

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You still havn't gotten passed the dead being unable to have knowledge.

The verses you quote, especially the rich man and Lazarus, must have a different meaning.

Sheol and hades are the original words that have been translated as "hell".


They literally mean grave.

The bible says: "the wages sin pays is death". Romans 6:23
Everlasting torture was not *ever* mentioned.

Lake of fire or Gehenna- second death. If you read on you notice death is put there too.
Why?

Anything put there can never come back. Death without the possibility of a ressurection. Everlasting death. Or everlasting punishment, if you will. Torment can also have the meaning of being jailed. In this case, kept dead forever. everlasting torment.


KT

_His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.
( Psalms 146:4 )


What this has to do with evolution or creation, I don't know. :p


KT

I thought the Catholic church/ Pope just removed purgatory from their set of beliefs. On top of that, Heaven/Hell/Purgatory are a state of consciousness, not actually physical/metaphysical places. Jesus preached this (IMHO) and John Paul II also stated this ( http://smithbrad.nventure.com/pope.htm ).

sounds to me like selective interpretation of verses. Another issue I have with many sects. I think the bible is wonderful literature, and can serve as a great guidebook on how to live your life....if you accept it as allegorical.

For instance, the miracle of the multiplication of fish and loaves. Did Jesus actually go *viola* and food appeared out of nothing? That's not my interpretation of it. Instead the explanation that I've read for that passage is that Jesus inspired those in attendance to share what they had with others. Still somewhat of a miracle imho, and a wonderful message. But not "magic" as insisted by many sects.

The biggest problem I have is with literal interpretation of the bible, and then the selective reading of passages. There are loads of contradictions in the bible...how do you pick and choose which to follow and which to ignore?

I'm not being selective. The meaning of hell is never a physical punishment.

The "miricles" are true. It's the fact that they were events that cannot be explained or understood that made them miricles.

There are NO contradictions.
On the surface, out of context it may appear that way.
Simple explanations will settle them all.

As to literal interpretations...Some of what is written are sign, visions, dreams, parables or illustrations.
I've met people who want to take Revelation as literal.
The opening verses make it clear that it was presented in signs to John by an angel to help him see what was to take place in the future.


KT