what's wrong with the US: huge portions

[snowman]

Originally posted by artplumber
Do you see anything in this study that indicates that fat soluble vitamins are ineffectively absorbed depending on the quartile of fat intake?

No this is an entirely differen't study, but the point is that fat and its role in diet is not well understood. The recent study was in all the major news papers, but I did not write down the referance. It was a very major study and the results were not what was expected, acording to conventional wisdom. Seems that theres a lot of that lately, especially in the "everyone knows" world of nutrition. Seems that "everyone knows" is more a fairy tale than fact.

[nostatic]

yeah, but what is your background that allows you to so thoroughly understand this complicated and apparently conflicting research? You don't seem to want to talk about that...

and btw, I'm not so sure stroke is the be-all indicator for cardiovascular disease.

[dd74]

FWIW, I've heard the same as Snowman, though I can't remember where. What I do remember is that fat has its place, particularly with physically active individuals.

An extreme case would be an endurance cyclist (Tour de France competitor), who on any given day - not just racing, but training as well - burns 10,000 calories.

What they eat after would kill an average person, i.e. five cheeseburgers, enough pasta to feed two families, a half bucket of KFC, piles and piles of chocolate, lots of booze, too.

And then, with that, they ride bicycles that cannot support more than 165 pounds.

No, it's not the quantity, it's what you do after consuming the quantity.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by dd74
I'm not certain about this, but if I recall, Jim Fixx was extremely overweight before he took up running and eating properly. An autopsy found, harsh as it was, that the damage was already done whilst Fixx was overweight.

In short, he already had the Reaper's target on his back; the running and extreme diet only sped up the heart attack that killed Fixx.

Fixx had a strong family history as well IIRC. I would say the contrary to be true. Exercise and weight loss probably added years to his life. The simple interventions of exercise and weight management after heart attack, heart surgery, and angioplasty (a program called cardiac rehabilitation) demonstrate significant reductions in mortality, repeat heart attack, or repeat surgery or angioplasty. It is true that in the immediate period following exercise (or even sex), the rates of cardiovascular mortality are increased. However, the average mortality in a day is reduced by those who exercise, since exercise is a very limited portion of the day.

I don't know what parts of that path report you are referring to, but it is my recollection that he had coronary disease possibly with an old heart attack but the majority of his heart was "normal". This is nothing special in a late 40's individual. Earliest plaque development is present in the teenage years in autopsy studies.

I've treated people in their 20's for heart attacks. Bad genes + smoking + diabetes + eating poorly. You pick the risks. These people could dramatically lower their risks by adopting increased physical activity levels, avoiding smoking, and controlling (or avoiding) diabetes etc.

[gavinlit]

"...stroke is the be-all indicator for cardiovascular disease"
It is if you think that stroke & heart attack mean the same thing....

[artplumber]

Originally posted by dd74
FWIW, I've heard the same as Snowman, though I can't remember where. What I do remember is that fat has its place, particularly with physically active individuals.

No one is disputing this assertion. I am disputing the assertion that large amounts of oral fat (from the salad dressing) are required to absorb so-called fat soluble vitamins from salads.

PS going to bed. I have an early flight that got earlier since all of this cr@p at the airports.

[dd74]

Originally posted by artplumber
Fixx had a strong family history as well IIRC. I would say the contrary to be true. Exercise and weight loss probably added years to his life. The simple interventions of exercise and weight management after heart attack, heart surgery, and angioplasty (a program called cardiac rehabilitation) demonstrate significant reductions in mortality, repeat heart attack, or repeat surgery or angioplasty. It is true that in the immediate period following exercise (or even sex), the rates of cardiovascular mortality are increased. However, the average mortality in a day is reduced by those who exercise, since exercise is a very limited portion of the day.

I don't know what parts of that path report you are referring to, but it is my recollection that he had coronary disease possibly with an old heart attack but the majority of his heart was "normal". This is nothing special in a late 40's individual. Earliest plaque development is present in the teenage years in autopsy studies.

I've treated people in their 20's for heart attacks. Bad genes + smoking + diabetes + eating poorly. You pick the risks. These people could dramatically lower their risks by adopting increased physical activity levels, avoiding smoking, and controlling (or avoiding) diabetes etc.

Yes, I think you're right: I remember something about a prior heart attack. But there was also something about how he began his training; that he didn't ease into it, went too radical too quickly - something like that...

[nostatic]

I did a scan at age 40 and found I was in the 95th percentile with placque on my right descending aorta (I think it was that...my doc said it is "the widowmaker"). My cholestoral was within normal range, but he wanted it lower. I did statins for a short time but didn't like them and instead decided to change my diet and exercise more. That's when I started doing kung fu again and trying to surf more. The next year I did my workup and my LDL was down significantly (I had stopped taking the statins after about 3 weeks).

[dd74]

Originally posted by artplumber

PS going to bed. I have an early flight that got earlier since all of this cr@p at the airports.

More sunbelt roving, eh?

BTW: I avoid salad dressing. I've seen how Thousand Islands is made - to think of it makes me want to hurl.

[snowman]

I seem to recall the fat article was in the Wall Street Journel withing the last week or so. I just don't have the need to go back and find it to convince someone that should already know better.

If you want to read something really interesting about fat, read the Aug 10, 2006 (thats today) letters to the editor of the WSJ. Read the letter by Mary G Enig Ph.D. President, The Maryland Nutritionists Association. Its further out than anything I would state about fat, saturated fat and hydrogenated fats.. Seems like lard is good.

And yet everyone ignores the obvious, All this fast food and everyone is living longer, a lot longer and more healthy lives than our ancestors. Explain that.

[dd74]

Atkins swore by fat. Also heavy whipping cream. What you avoid are the carbs. But then, one needs carbs to help burn the protein and fat, right?

[snowman]

Atkins is like my grandmother, a single person proves nothing.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by snowman


And yet everyone ignores the obvious, All this fast food and everyone is living longer, a lot longer and more healthy lives than our ancestors. Explain that.

That's easy (surprised you haven't figured it out). Longer? Yes. Better health care and pharmaceuticals. More healthy? Arguable.

How about that cv?

[dd74]

Originally posted by snowman
Atkins is like my grandmother, a single person proves nothing.

Did your grandmother advise people to eat, more or less, fatty foods, avoid carbs, and in turn, gain hundreds of thousands of followers who lost weight?

[dd74]

Originally posted by nostatic

How about that cv?

What's a "cv"?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by snowman
I seem to recall the fat article was in the Wall Street Journel withing the last week or so. I just don't have the need to go back and find it to convince someone that should already know better.

ahh yes, the WSJ. One of the leading medical journals.

So our resident cardiovascular doc "should know better", but I'm still trying to figure out your qualifications/background that allow you to render such stunning analysis on this topic.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by dd74
What's a "cv"?

curriculum vitae. Essentially a glorified resume, its what academics use instead. It generally lists education, experience, authored publications, presentations, and other relevant information.

[snowman]

common sense, what many medical doctors lack.

Also remember medicine is NOT a science, it is an ART. Artists are an unusual bunch.

[nostatic]

ahh, I see. So you have no training in the field, but your "common sense" allows you to understand the deeper meanings and broader implications of the Harvard study.

Just want to clarify...

[snowman]

I didn't state any such thing. I did say something about artists. No science was harmed by my statement.

This particular study speaks for itself, an unusual, clear, well written abstract. Facts are difficult to argue with.