Speeding Ticket when not speeding. What now?
 

I am looking fo some advice....

Here's the situation:
Friday, September 1, 2006
Interstate Route 80 Indiana
Posted speed limit 70 mph
Nissan Pathfinder, registered in Connecticut, driven by my son (21) and girlfriend
The kids "tested" the car's speedometer on a highway speed display and found it accurate
They set the cruise control at 74 mph

The kids were pulled over by an Indiana State Trooper who issued a ticket for travelling 81 in a 70 mph area. My son asked to see the radar which reflected the 81 mph reading and he was refused by the trooper.

So, what to do? I seems to me that this is the perfect scam situation for the Indiana police. Out of state vehicle, college kids, no way to contest the ticket due to inabaility to get back to Indiana, invent the 81 mph speed and simply issue the ticket.
The ticket is for $125, but with driving points hitting his driving record in Massachusetts, he will see a $300 increase in his insurance for each of the next 6 years.

And, you may find this hard to believe, but this kid is a steady, no nonsense, honest person. If he said he was going 74 on cruise control, that is probably right.

Thanks.

Fight it. If you truly believe your son was wronged, fight with him.
I had a situation with a MSP trooper this year. He claims he clocked me at 91. I know that I wasn't going that fast. I WAS going over the limit but not 91. He agreed to write me up 70 in a 55. I just paid the ticket as I was breaking the law.
I don't know if the police are required to show the radar reading but the ticket should show the speed he was clocked. Mine did anyway.

Call the county prosecuter for which the ticket was issued. If your son has a clean record, they may be willing negotiate a lesser penalty.

Jury trial. A clean cut, well dressed kid should win if the prosecutor wants to take it to trial.

Must differ from state to state, but PA doesn't allow for a jury trial for driving offences.

Bummer. I've never had a ticket go to court when I requested a jury trial. I did have a prosecutor tell me he was ready to go, so I said I was too. I sat at the defendent's table for about 15 minutes with the jury pool sitting behind me. The prosecutor finally came in and told me they were dismissing the case for lack of evidence. :D

Re: Speeding Ticket when not speeding. What now?
 

$300 for six years is $1800; add the $125 cost of the ticket and the total cost is $1925.

The question now is how much will it cost to fight the ticket in travel and defense expenses.

There is a good chance that if he fights the ticket, the officer will not show up for court and your son will likely have the charge dismissed. Even if the officer does show up and testifies, your son might still have the charge dismissed.

It is the officer's judgement, when he aims his radar gun at a group of cars and gets a reading above the speed limit, to determine which car is actually the speeder -- this can be difficult to do if the group of cars is traveling toward him or away from him.

If the officer claims to remember the specific events when he clocked and ticketed your son (which he probably won't, but will try to testify that he remembers), I'd question his abilities to remember such details. By asking him, how many tickets he wrote that day, how many he wrote that week, what were the makes and models and colors of some of the other cars he wrote tickets for on the day he gave your son a ticket, what the weather was like on the day he wrote up you son, and other such questions, you can raise doubt about his testimony as to the specific facts relating to your son's ticket.

Your son is likely to remember the specifics surrounding the ticket (for example, how heavy traffic was when the officer clocked him) because that was the only ticket/contact with law enforcement he had that day -- a very memorable event. The officer probably clocked a lot of cars with radar, wrote many tickets, and had contact with a lot of motorists that day, subsequently his memory about the specific events surrounding the incident with your son can be questioned.

You can also raise question about when the radar gun the officer was using was calibrated last, what his training was in the use of it. If you know of any calibration requirements and training the manufacturer recommends regarding the unit, you'd have some potential good defense material if the department can't demonstrate they are following the manufacturers guidelines.

I do believe too that in most states, the officer is supposed to provide the driver with a print-out of the radar reading -- showing the speed and time -- if the driver requests it; that is something you should look into.

Of course "defense research and preparation" and the trip to court in another state will all be expensive, but if there is a "principle of the thing" element to the situation -- your comments seem to imply that's the case -- it might be the course of action you and your son will want to pursue.

Speed limit 70. Actual speed 74.

Do you really think there's a case to contest?

74 indicated - not 74MPH real speed if I read aright. I drive 40MPH indicated in a 35MPH zone, and am comfortable doing it even with a cop up my tail, radar, speed trap, whatever. I know my speedometer is that far off.

I would not trust jsut one pas on radar to judge my speedometer buy, it very well may have read low on that one pass, so they thought it was accurate. I've checked GPS, and multipl of those radar statiosn, in multiple conditions, and get a consitant 40MP is 35MPH. I'd not just check by radar once and make an assumption. Granted - most cars read high, not low...

It must be different in Indiana, isn't 74mph still over the posted 70mph!
I say let him pay it and the insurance and hopefully he will get a little smarter at the school that he was speeding to:)

If you trust him (you do) fight it WITH him, not FOR him.

BTW, this is not a zero sum game...should he get ticketed again, the results will be compounded by this issue.

Snce I was a bit of a reprobate, my father's solution was to have me pay both the ticket and the insurance...I fought the law, but my Dad won.

Yes, 74 is over the posted 70 MPH speed limit, and yes he was in violation of the speed limit and therefore has earned the right to be ticketed. But, he was driving slower than the majority of traffic, was ticketed for 81 MPH, not the 74 he was actually driving.
To say i should tell him to drive slower would have 1. made him an unsafe driver on that highway of much faster vehicles, and 2. would be an arogant and condescending response.
I think I'll just help him fight it or live with it. I'm not perfect enough to say there is a lesson in this.
C

Find a local attorney who specialized in traffic offenses. He might be able to "negotiate" the infraction to a non moving violation. Good luck. I'm a Californian who went to college in Washington and was regularly targeted by the Oregon state troopers.

+1.

For a couple hundred bucks the entire issue will probably dissappear.

Speed limit 70, actual speed 74, ticketed speed 81

I am saying yeah, there is a case to contest.

Under 5 mph may still be a ticket(justified), but no points-that's the biggie that'll stay on the record. This might be a good time to show your son when to "fight the good fight" and create a memory that stays.


-Way back in high school, I was sleeping in the passenger seat of the gf's car on the way up north, and awoke to a flashlight in my eyes.
-Saginaw, Mi. officer asked for my i.d. and I told him I wasn't driving and he didn't need it. That resulted in a multi-hundred dollar "no seatbelt" ticket.
-I went back and fought it twice.
-The first time in from of a local (wink,wink) magistrate who said the officer was "mistaken" about not wearing the seatbelt, and the the ticket was reduced to a $75 "not wearing it snuggly" (i.e.1-4" from chest). Pretty smug for two buddies who've got a teenager in a small room.
-I fought that one as well. Mom(who was a lawyer) took long trip up with me for the trial. We sat and exchanging glares with the officer for 45 min. (he was on time and a half pay of course) and then he and the other lawyer dissapeared 5 minutes before the case was called.
-we should have had a juicy counter-suit, but the time spent with mom and the result was worth it.

In Indiana you are just plain screwed. Your best bet is to fight it, tell the local yocal that you will not continue to fight it if they do not report it to your state. You will pay if they do not report it. Might work, might not, but the local judge is probably closely related to the cop. Been there done that.

Oh pulease. I understand the whole "you did something wrong, now you've gotta pay the price" thing, but sometimes it's taken too far. Having the cruise set at 74 on the interstate when the speed limit is 70 and taking it on the chin while being blamed for going 81 is dumb. I suppose if the cop had given him a ticket for going 108mph he should just take that too, same thing. Not.

The whole thing about "cops never show up in court" is bull. It's considered part of a police officer's duties to back up any citations they write in court and they're scheduled for it as part of their assignments. Don't count on it.

Bull*****. I recently placed lawer rates to contest a ticket of mine (speeding) and it was $600 for a basic trial by declaration, $1,200 (minimum, plus expenses) for trial representation with discovery and over $2,500 for representation by a highly-aggressive (and successful) attorney that has a 99% success rate in winning speeding ticket cases.

I haven't decided which way to go yet, but I'm actually leaning towards the $2,500 one, since it'd probably be cheaper than the increased insurance premiums.

Any notion of paying a lawyer "a couple of hundred bucks" and expecting miracles is ridiculous.

I recently had two tickets dismissed. A local one for $200, the other was $350 since the lawyer had to drive to a different county.

There are a couple lawyers here that do traffic defense, and have a flat fee. If they are not successful in getting your ticket dismissed, they pay the fine, so their fee is all the ticket will cost.

Cops love going to court, time and a half to read a magazine.

I've heard cops are required to show up for court, but I've never had one do it. Granted, if I get a ticket these days I ask and usually receive deferred adjudication.

The last time I actually went to court the cop showed up and sat in the little cop area. Then he looked over and saw me. He got up and did something at the court clerk's desk and left. Before court started they called me and another person up and said our case was dismissed. All I can figure is either I look very lawyer like (I'm an engineer) in a suit or he just thought I was a nice guy when he pulled me over (I'm always nice to cops).

According to my sources they are not exactly "required" to show up, but it's highly recommended. In important cases the prosecutor will call the officers they "need" to make their case and assure they are coming (in other words, it's not terribly uncommon to not show)

Your son has more motivation to lie than he trooper does.
He admitted he was speeding but he indicates he believes that breaking a law is a matter of degree as in 4 mph over is OK.

Have him pay the ticket, it will be a cheap lesson in the long run.

it is a matter of degree

no one here can bull**** and say that when the speed limit is 70 thats how fast they go and they never travel above that speed. thats bull****

This topic has been noticed by Google's spiders -- you can see the Google ads at the bottom of the page are relevant to the topic. I haven't checked any of the links (with an effective short position in Google's stock, I don't encourage clicking their ads!), but there might be some help there.

I'll help try to pull up some more ads.

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Only because thats what you beleive. I drive 35 in a 35. He was knowingly driver 74 in a 70. You do realise how strict they are with limiters in the pit lnaes at races? Over 55MPH? Perhaps you'lle get nailed with a stop and go.

Its hard, as speedometers are so darn unreliable. 40MPH indicated, is 35MPH, but 42MPH indicated, on a local radar things, bringsu p speeds like 45MPH, or higher. I haven't worked out my tach's RPM's to figure out what speed I'm realy going. I know 40 idnicated is truely 35...

I get a nice railroad train of cars behind me on one lane each way roads that are 35MPH. People just don't care for the rules, and come barging down at 45-50MPH, then catch me, and join the train... Its a section a literal 3 minutes long, I can get quite the tail.

So yes - some do indeed drive as close as they can. I as of yet had not had time to find the other speed limits on my speedometer yet.

Well, there are a lot of good ideas here and the expected "suck it up and learn the lesson posts." I guess the problem that I have is this... Let's say we're not talking about my son but instead the situation posted by Tervuren (see the post above). He was travelling at the speed limit, with a train of cars behind hm, and his gauges say he is holding at the speed limit. An officer stops him and tickets him for excessive speed. He can't believe it! The assumption by the "system" is the officer is honest, doing his job, and you are at fault. In this case, the officer was either not honest, his equipment faulty, or Tervuren is lying. So, we can discount the possibility that he is lying, so that leaves ... Tervuren with no recourse and really irritated. That is basically the situation in which my son finds himself. But his situation is compounded by having the ticket written in a state he will likely not be visiting for at least another 6 months.

If anyone knows someone in Indiana my son can speak with, please let me know via PM or response here.

Thanks,
C

Teruven.... Are you related to stevepaa?

Here in Washington state, if you have five or more behind you, you are required to pull over and let them pass. I wish it was enforced better.

My biggest pet peeve is driver's who are not paying attention. A close number two is you.

Usually, the train leaders are also not paying attention. If they are aware of the line up behind them it is very rude to not let them by.

I recently read the factory specs on my BMW M6, one of the most expensive cars BMW produces. At an indicated speed of 70MPH your actual speed can be plus or minus 10% of reading. The error is differen't at diffenen't speeds. That gives a reasonable indication of how accurate a speedo can be and tells you how bull sht the officers ability to visually estimate speed is. Thats the main reason the cops give you a reasonable 9 mph over the limit at this speed before they ticket you. An actual speed of 74 is BS, but check your speedo before you swear you were only doing 74 and NEVER admit to it in court. If your were only doing 74 Fight it. Many car manufacturers try to make their speedos read low to help prevent the problem. My M6, when its indicating 70 is actually doing 72.5mph, thats why when I am driving at an indicated 70 to 72 in a 65 mph zone, I am passing most of the traffic. My MB reads 85 mph at the same speed. All my other cars usually read 4 to 7 mph low at 70. The Caddy is best and is within 2 mph all the way up to the rev limiter cuttoff of 105mph

Tervuren, you're an assh@le. You have no idea who you are holding up. Could be someone going to the hospital to see a family member, or someone taking their kid to the doctor, or a myriad of other things. Just get the hell out of the way and let those in a hurry pass. D$ckhead!

It ain't your job to enforce the traffic laws. Stop playing cop and go to the academy if you want to do so.

Oh sure, it's always "someone on the way to the hospital". I just can't believe how many private ambulances I see each day, all those people on the way to the hospital.

I side with Tervuren. I try to drive the speed limit, and if you don't like it, you can pass me in the next passing zone. And I've _never_ been issued a speeding ticket. Don't like it, tough.

Last year I got an emergency call from the hospital. Someone was trying to bleed to death. Needed surgery immediately. I was 10 miles from the hospital, heading the opposite direction when I got the call. I told the nurses to get the patient to the O.R. and call the blood bank, I'd be there in 10 minutes. Well guess what? Some ass hat in the fast lane (HOV lane) decides that I don't need to drive any faster than the speed limit and won't pull over. Traffic is thick, but there is no one in the HOV lane ahead of this jerk. I flash my lights, turn on my flashers and sound the horn. All I get is a glare in the rearview. Finally there was a small gap and I passed him on the right. He actually sped up a bit to try to prevent me from passing! Self righteous prick could have cost someone their life.

By the way, a high speed run to the hospital is a pretty common thing. If someone looks like they are in a hurry, get the hell out of the way.

Yup, yup.

Generaly though ,you can tell, as they will seriously let you know. Hazard lights, blinking their headlights at you, honking, driving like mad, etc.

I'm not going to respond to the flame bating posts, I don't beleive in feeding trolls. I feel like writing a lot onthe subject, my time right now is more important. Moses, if I saw a car do the actions you did, I would seriously get out of its way, or failing ability to get out of its way, take off like a madman until there was a safe place for them to get by.

Here's a twist:
My brother rode a wheelie past a deputy on his 636 Kawahwatever today on his way to my house. Cop didn't give him a ticket. He said" you know, I could impound the bike and give a reckless riding ticket don't you?" "It's a holiday so I won't."
WTF??!!! He hasn't even got an endorsement.

Moses: If I were to have a person driving a like a nut, flashing his lights and what not come up on me I would move over as well but how is one supposed to know that they are on the way to the hospital to perform surgery? Now, a volunteer firefighter or EMT is another thing as they generally have lights and siren. What if you caused an accident by driving like that?
Don't get me wrong, if it was me or a family member waiting on you, I would want you there ASAP but is there some liability that comes with it?

How would you know what was going on at the tail end of your "train"?

That would be up to the car at the back. I also don't drive an isolated living room, I can hear a horn honk, or whatever. I've heard a Ferrari V8 at mid RPM several hundred feet ahead in four lanes of traffic, my ears picked the sound up. Eventualy, i saw it in a turn lane, and it was indeed a red F430 Spider.(Driven by Jeff G.) I realy realy pay attention to the traffic around me, almost never miss seeing another Porsche. I'm alert enough, I generaly spot at least one each drive into town. At night, I noticed a Maserati Coupe in a duller color going the oppisite way, not the most remarkable looking car to spot under such circumstances.

But what can you expect me to do? The problem is not caused by me, but by others. They do not have to speed through a residential area, and pile up on a car that is going exactly, or one or two over the speed limit.

Most of you, do not know the road I'm talking about. If you are in the Charlotte area, is a section of Carmel road before it dead ends into Fairview. The section starts with two lanes after a light, going into 35MPH from a 45MPH, clearly posted, the right lane continues for about 800 feet, before becoming a right turn only, and dead ending. The 35MPH is clearly, and consiley posted, in more then one area over the road. When entering this section, I have typicly been observing the driver's around me, and have noticed which seem to be in a hurry. Its a simple matter then, of sliding into the right lane, and waving them by, soem take it, others don't. From that ponit on though, its tough luck. Its ot that long, has one stoplight, then opens back up to two lanes just before the second.

I am not going to go into speed limits, thats your own judgement. I'd like to, but I'll keep silent for now. I'd ramble for too long, and perhaps get off subject....

Vehicles Owned by Physicians

Vehicle code 21058. A physician traveling in response to an emergency call shall be exempt from the provisions of Sections 22351 (excessive speed) and 22352 if the vehicle so used by him displays an insigne approved by the department indicating that the vehicle is owned by a licensed physician. The provisions of this section do not relieve the driver of the vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway, nor protect the driver from the consequences of an arbitrary exercise of the privileges of this section.

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