Your experience with paddle shift transmissions, DSG and all the rest...

[dd74]

After reading a recent thread on the new GTi with the DSG transmission, I've wondered if these semi-automatic, clutchless transmissions are all the rage everyone says they are. I like traditional manuals with a clutch, but hey, it seems like those might soon be, like air-cooled cars, a thing of the past.

Any thoughts and/or experiences with these transmissions out there?

[legion]

DSG is the VW system with two clutches, correct? If so, it's the only one that shows any promise IMO.

It seems that transmissions that have both an "automatic" and "manual" mode run all the way from automatic transmissions (planetary gears and all) that just have a manual mode to manual transmissions that a computer shifts for you. With a manually-controlled automatic, you still have all of the drawbacks of an automatic. With a computer-controlled manual, you give up some degree of control as the computer doesn't know that you are planning on downshifting in three seconds, but in a manual you might be putting the clutch in early...

What DSG adds is significantly shorter shifts, but there is still an element of a computer trying to anticipate your moves (gear on the non-used clutch must be preselected by the computer).

[Moses]

I have a car with paddle shifters. Much, much quicker than any manual gearbox I've used. Also, the fully automatic mode is intuitive. If you are pushing on the throttle aggressively, the transmission doesn't shift till redline. Amazing technology.

[nostatic]

DSG is two clutches, one for even numbered gears, the other for odd numbered gears. A video on how it works:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2491445337871038412

From what I read, the computer is pretty smart on figuring out what you want to do. And I'm sure that there will be aftermarket chip flashing avaiable to tweak things, and that in manual mode you can learn how it works and anticipate the system to your advantage.

Wish the GTi was RWD

[craigster59]

I've got the A3 w/ DSG, shifts in .20 seconds and is quick. I don't use the paddle shifters much seeing as how I don't use it to "Canyon Carve", I'd much rather take the p-car for that. I've got 42k on the clock and have noticed that recently when the tranny is cold, if I accelerate quick into traffic the ESP (electronic skid protection) kicks on. I'm going to have it checked at the 45k service. Otherwise no problems.

[serge944]

First of all, there are automated manual transmissions (like the dsg) and there are "tiptronic" automatic transmissions. The latter have torque converters and are therefore crap.

I drove a DSG equipped GTI and even though it is faster than a conventional manual transmission, is doesn't feel as involving or fun to drive.

[deathpunk dan]

The Audi TT 3.2 with DSG is incredibly fun to drive.

[motion]

My F-car has the F1 tranny with paddle shifters. Shifts in 150ms. Once you use one on the track, you will never go back to rowing gears. Even a sequential tranny would be work. Never having to remove your hands from the wheel and still having lightning-fast shifts is priceless IMHO.

[masraum]

If I had to choose between an auto with a torque conv or a manual with a hydraulic/electric clutch, I'd take the manual. If I can get a car with a shifter and clutch pedal, then I'll go with that.

[dd74]

Originally posted by motion
Once you use one on the track, you will never go back to rowing gears. Even a sequential tranny would be work. Never having to remove your hands from the wheel and still having lightning-fast shifts is priceless IMHO.

Yes, I see exactly what you're saying, because I can equate "never having to remove your hands from the wheel" with bicycle riding when Shimano introduced the STI system: the gear selectors are behind the brake levers, so a rider can shift while climbing, sprinting and descending. It's a huge difference from the days when the shifters were on the down tube.

[Moses]

Originally posted by masraum
If I had to choose between an auto with a torque conv or a manual with a hydraulic/electric clutch, I'd take the manual. If I can get a car with a shifter and clutch pedal, then I'll go with that.

The torque converter shifters are not all the same. The E55 AMG torque converter can lock up in all forward gears when conditions warrant. The E55 is faster 0-60 and in the 1/4 mile than the BMW M5, despite the BMWs extra 30 HP and sequential manual gearbox. Gearshifts are quick and precise.

Programmable shifting can keep you in the thickest part of your torque curve if you want, or shift at redline if you want. It wll not upshift during a cornering load if you don't want it to. If you are not driving aggressively, the transmission can have beautiful street manners. If I had a track-only car, the sequential manual gearbox would be my choice, but the versatility of the paddle shifter "slushbox" is pretty nice.

[Noah930]

The salesman we had when we purchased our Acura TL said a similar thing about the mechanical lockup available in automatic transmission torque converters. Apparently, some automatic transmissions have torque converters that fully mechanically lockup. And apparently, the TL is one of those vehicles. Nowhere can I find literature that specifies which auto trannies do this, but the salesman was an SCCA racer, FWIW. Granted, still not the same as DSG/SMG/F1 computer-controlled clutched systems, but that does blur the line between conventional comparisons between manual and automatic transmissions. Admittedly, though, there is a lag when romping on the pedal, and the computer does not blip the throttle during downshifts.

[dd74]

Interesting enough, the Acura TL has one a slew of saloon/sedan races. And sequential and/or paddle shifters are everywhere in that class of race car.

[rick-l]

The salesman we had when we purchased our Acura TL said a similar thing about the mechanical lockup available in automatic transmission torque converters.

At wide open throttle, shifting at red-line, I wonder what percentage of the time the torque converter would be locked.

Doesn't seem quite the same as a friction clutch, way more losses in the fluid coupling.

[Noah930]

Doesn't seem quite the same as a friction clutch, way more losses in the fluid coupling.

I understand what you're saying. Intuitively, we'd all think that the traditional clutch (or a DSG/SMG/F!/E-shift variety) would be far more efficient. But hey, those Honda engineers are pretty bright guys. They may have pretty sneaky ways to make that coupling torque converter almost as efficient as a traditional clutch-pedaled system. But I admit. there's no literature out there supporting the specifics of what that salesman claimed. But neither would I discount his claims completely. There are a couple high po cars out there where the auto box is faster to 60 mph than the manual version.

[Moses]

Originally posted by Noah930
There are a couple high po cars out there where the auto box is faster to 60 mph than the manual version.

I think that is the rule, rather than the exception. One of the biggest advances is intuitive shifting. If you are heavy on the go pedal, you won't get premature shifting. You will stay in the thick part of the torque curve.

By the way, I recently drove a friends Acura TL. Very impressive. Tight, fun car to drive. Great gearbox. Years ago I had an Acura integra. That was a great little car, too.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Moses
I think that is the rule, rather than the exception. One of the biggest advances is intuitive shifting. If you are heavy on the go pedal, you won't get premature shifting. You will stay in the thick part of the torque curve.

By the way, I recently drove a friends Acura TL. Very impressive. Tight, fun car to drive. Great gearbox. Years ago I had an Acura integra. That was a great little car, too.

What is meant, exactly, by intuitive? Does the gearbox "learn" the driver's style? It sounds a little like a driver is training the gearbox. Is it that linear?

The TL you drove - when you say "great gearbox" do you mean a traditional manual gearbox?

[Tervuren]

Originally posted by dd74
Yes, I see exactly what you're saying, because I can equate "never having to remove your hands from the wheel" with bicycle riding when Shimano introduced the STI system: the gear selectors are behind the brake levers, so a rider can shift while climbing, sprinting and descending. It's a huge difference from the days when the shifters were on the down tube.

I can beleive it, I drove a downtube shifted bike for the first time a few weeks ago. I love how I can just flip levers with my hands on the handle bars as I go.

Auto's have not been sporting, as it hasn't been demanded. When I look at the design, an Automatic makes sence in terms of transfering power over the conventional manual, thing is, until recently, it hasn't been developed for sporting use. Most Auto's in the 70's and 80's came from trucks put into cars - not quite an ideal match. (Ferrari's first Automatics where GM Auto's from a truck. )

[Moses]

Originally posted by dd74
What is meant, exactly, by intuitive? Does the gearbox "learn" the driver's style? It sounds a little like a driver is training the gearbox. Is it that linear?

It does "learn" the drivers style, but it's more than that. If you are driving leisurely, say, in traffic or on a city street, the gearbox will upshift at 3000 RPM or so.
If you get heavy on the pedal, it won't shift till redline. It won't upshift during cornering, etc. You can also shift to full manual, but you need to watch the redline or you'll be bouncing off the rev limiter.

The TL you drove - when you say "great gearbox" do you mean a traditional manual gearbox?

The TL I drove was an automatic with "Sequential Sportshift" Shifted quickly and cleanly. Really well engineered car.

[techweenie]

My DSG is the low-end unit with a Tiptronic-like stickshift; no paddles.

In automatic mode, it's just plain infuriating.

If you shift it manually, it's quite pleasant.