cluster bombs are ok by US

[Usmellgass2?]

Originally posted by Usmellgass2?
We are now at war with a radical fundamental faction that wants to impose a twisted fascist interpretation of Islam on the entire world. Much as the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

No not all Muslims, Islam, People of color, what ever you are trying to insert here. You know that.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by kach22i
Again, all of them?

Even the ones we "liberated "?

Yes.
All of the terrorists and radicals.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by Usmellgass2?
No not all Muslims, Islam, People of color, what ever you are trying to insert here. You know that.

But that takes the fun out of it....

[kach22i]

Originally posted by dhoward
Yes.
All of the terrorists and radicals.

Why did GWB liberate all the terrorist?

So we could kill them?

Please tell me that was the plan all along, I need it to make some sense.

[dhoward]

I believe that the people who were 'liberated' were in fact, the people who suffered under the regime of Saddam. You remember, the hundreds of thousands, murdered, raped, shot, poisoned, and maimed. Remember them? They are the ones who appreciate the US presence, with the hope that it brings stability and safety to the region. They're not the ones blowing up their own infrastructure, or killing innocent people. I know this firsthand from my friends in the sandpit.
The US hires locals to fill sandbags to reinforce the tents and buildings in the US compounds as added protection from mortars. Insurgents take these jobs when they can, to get fire coordinates. The regular Iraqi's, upon seeing a worker with a handheld GPS and cell phone, will turn those people in.
It happens. All the time.

[stevepaa]

Try again

"The ball-type submunitions are APERS. They are very small and are delivered on known concentrations of enemy personnel, scattered across an area. Like a land mine, it will not blow up until pressure is put on it. "

So these are perfectly acceptable to use near civilians? In cities?

[kach22i]

Originally posted by dhoward
I believe that the people who were 'liberated' ...........They're not the ones blowing up their own infrastructure, or killing innocent people. I know this firsthand from my friends in the sandpit.

So in your own words, it not all of them "Arabs" who are terrorist after all.

Going further with this..................and its not Arabic society which is intollerant, and wishing all Americans death.

Therefore, should we be wipping them out without exception?

Is it still so obvious and clear?

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Try again

So these are perfectly acceptable to use near civilians? In cities?

Did the article say these were the ones used?
I really don't know.

[FOG]

Where to start on the mis-information. The dud rate at 40-50%? Indiscriminate targeting? Indiscriminate weaponeering? Targeting and/or weaponeering directed at non-combatants? Civilian = non-combatant?

I’m also curious about the violations of the Geneva (and Hague, laws of warfare, etc.) that are referenced. Please enlighten me.

[stevepaa]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/R?r109:FLD001:S58949
"Every year, hundreds of civilians are killed and many more are injured due to unexploded cluster bombs. From the fields of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, through the streets of Kosovo and Iraq, to the arid hills of Afghanistan and the playgrounds of Lebanon, these lethal relics of war continue to cripple life, hope, and peace.

Cluster munitions are large bombs, rockets, or artillery shells that contain up to hundreds of small submunitions or individual bomblets. They are intended for attacking enemy troop formations and armor, covering approximately a .6-mile radius. In other words, their swath is over one-half mile. Yet in practice they pose a real threat to the safety of civilians when used in populated areas because they leave hundreds of unexploded bombs over a very large area and they are often inaccurate.

In Laos today, there are between 9 and 27 million unexploded cluster bombs, leftovers from our bombing campaigns in the 1960s and 1970s. Approximately 11,000 people, 30 percent of them children, have been killed or injured since the war ended.

In the first gulf war, 61,000 cluster bombs were used, containing 20 million bomblets. Since 1991, unexploded bomblets have killed 1,600 innocent men, women, and children and injured more than 2,500.

In Afghanistan in 2001, over 1,228 cluster bombs with almost a quarter of a million bomblets were used. Between October 2001 and November 2002, that year, 127 civilians were killed, 70 percent of them under the age of 18.

In Iraq in 2003, 13,000 cluster bombs with 2 million bomblets were used. Combining the first and second gulf war, the total number of unexploded bomblets in the region today is 1.2 million. How many people will die? Already, an estimated 1,220 Kuwaitis and 400 Iraqi civilians have been killed since 1991 because they innocently picked up one of these bomblets.

What gives rise in part to my amendment are recent developments in Lebanon over alleged use of cluster bombs. Throughout southern Lebanon, more than 405 cluster bomb sites containing approximately 100,000 unexploded bomblets have been discovered. Each site covers a radius of 220 yards. As Lebanese children and families return to their homes and begin to rebuild, they will be exposed to the danger of these unexploded bomblets lying in the rubble. Thirteen people, including three young children, have been killed so far, and 48 injured. One United Nations official estimates that the rate of unexploded bomblets is 40 percent. So far, more than 2,000 unexploded bomblets have been destroyed, but it will take 12 to 15 months to complete the effort.

During the Iraq war, U.S. troops fired 6 rockets containing 4,000 bomblets to eliminate 1 artillery piece in a civilian neighborhood. With a 16-percent failure rate, approximately 640 unexploded bomblets were left behind. That is 1 artillery piece--6 rockets, 4,000 bomblets, and today 640 unexploded bomblets on the streets. "

I'll discount the 40% rate but accept the 16%.

I just think we, the US, need to re-examine the use of these type of munitions.

[FOG]

Steve,

Because something is presented by a politician doesn’t make it fact or close to it.

The 40% is highly inaccurate, it is off by approximately a magnitude in the worse case scenario.

I don’t get out to the bay area often so we’ll have to wait to compare notes on de-mining in Cambodia and Laos or EOD efforts in Iraq.

What you don’t comprehend are the effects of the alternatives available to the U.S. in terms of munitions. I am sure you would like those even more.

The numbers listed for unexploded cluster bombs in Laos do not add up.

I have seen the mis-reporting, whether intentional or not (no discussion of motives here) as to the cause of more than a few serious/fatal injuries. I have no facts to question the numbers killed/injured but experience and cause. I know for a fact that unexploded AAA has killed/injured quite a few in populated areas of Iraq. Pin heads want to categorize them as “cluster bombs”.

I strongly agree that we should stop using these in built up areas and use the more lethal munitions.

S/F, FOG

[Usmellgass2?]

Originally posted by kach22i
So in your own words, it not all of them "Arabs" who are terrorist after all.

Going further with this..................and its not Arabic society which is intollerant, and wishing all Americans death.

Therefore, should we be wipping them out without exception?

Is it still so obvious and clear?

You are just playing silly word games now. you know I am talking about a group or subculture of radicals that are bent on the destruction of western civilization. You know I dont include any common folks who want to live in a peaceful and tolerant society. your attempt to make my position one of Bigotry stems from the fact that your point of view lacks any realistic substance.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by stevepaa
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/R?r109:FLD001:S58949
SNIPPED>>>>>>>


I just think we, the US, need to re-examine the use of these type of munitions.

And replace them with nice, safe, happy bombs?

Oh! I know! How 'bout them bombs that only attack the bad guys, like in HALO?
Yeah, we need us some of them....

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by dhoward
And replace them with nice, safe, happy bombs?

Oh! I know! How 'bout them bombs that only attack the bad guys, like in HALO?
Yeah, we need us some of them....

I thought sarcasm was only standard from the National Association of Airheads.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by FOG
I strongly agree that we should stop using these in built up areas and use the more lethal munitions.

S/F, FOG

I am not sure more lethal is the objective. Eliminating munitions which do not perform when expended would be my first objective. Eliminating use of cluster style munitions in cities would be my second.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by stevepaa
I thought sarcasm was only standard from the National Association of Airheads.

I'm hurt.

[competentone]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Eliminating munitions which do not perform when expended would be my first objective.

Ok, then please get to work on designing these "munitions which do not perform when expended"!

I would applaud you if you can devise such munitions, but (based upon your other comments in this thread) I suspect you have a serious lack of understanding about the nature of weapons, war, and human beings and would be completely lost in any attempt at serious action in the bloody business of warfare.

There are a lot of dirty, rotten, messy things in this world; all of life is not and cannot be like your clean, orderly, safe suburban American lifestyle.

Please try to understand this.

[FOG]

Comp is correct, most have no idea what they are talking about nor how inaccurate the initially quoted article is in regards to the facts.

A whole lot of munitions that are not cluster are labeled as such for any number of reasons. The mis-identification can be both deliberate and accidental.

I find it interesting that the same people de-cry the use of Mk77 munitions being used in place of CBUs. The accusation of wanting happy marshmallow bombs may be far more accurate.

S/F, FOG

[Eric 951]

Arguing over the humanitarian aspects of BOMBS is asinine.

Bombs are made to destroy, period. Regardless of wether they are classified as "cluster", "incendiary", or "nuclear".

INTENTIONALY targeting civilians with any type of munitions is morally objectable.

However, if civilians are harmed as a result of collateral damage from bombing valid military targets, that is just an unfortunate aspect of warfare.(one of many)

There is a reason the phrase "War is Hell" exists.

[kach22i]

Click the below link only if you can handle heavy graphic content.

This ain't the work of a coyote motocycle encounter.

The REAL Iraq War
http://www.awitness.org/journal/real_iraq_war.html